Discussion: Is defense just as important as offense?

I completely agree. I just want to add that guarding dolyak's is unrewarding but a definite necessity. It only takes one person to kill a dolyak even if it has guard NPC's.

Offense is the best defense. The problem is that while a good defense prevents the enemy from advancing it also prevents you from advancing. There is a distinct flow to any borderland and once you are stuck inside a keep it is very difficult to turn the tide back to a point where you are attacking. you can easily find yourself defending for hours upon hours until there is a shift in population due to time zones.

That being said, I think you are quite correct about the importance of upgrades. Upon taking any keep or tower siege needs to be placed immediately. Upgrades need to be purchased, but at that point I feel that if at all possible you should start attacking further enemy positions to give your keeps time to upgrade. Fighting is going to occur no matter what you do but if you garrison 10 to 20 people at a certain location you are leaving your other forces short handed and inviting an attack. Given time any keep or tower can be reduced no matter what it's defenses.

Honestly, I think we are saying the same thing just from a different point of view.

Mara, I tend to enjoy playing defense more than offense. Sure, it means standing around a lot.. or moving between multiple key points.. but it's really my preferred playstyle, since being in the thick of things slows down my computer and isn't really optimized at the moment with invisible people..

If I ever see you folks on a map, or if I miss you, and you see Eko Chai running around, point me to the location you want defended and I'll do my best.

o/

Really you need multiple things going on , all you need to do is have a 10 man patrol the back lines as a rearguard unit , recaping supply camps repairing walls, etc

Then you set up 2 or 3 groups and send then behind their backlines to kill stragglers, attack caravans, cap supply camps etc the goal is not to hold anything but disrupt their supply and resources now and then attack a tower as a distraction etc then run off causeing them to divert troops to deal with recaping or be bled of supply .


Then you have 2 attack groups 1 is a main attack group other is a diversion group . you decide on what the main target is get in postion then send the diversion force to attack a secondary target to pull them there and keep them distracted after a few min of attacking the fake target , you then engage and attack the real objective .

You can expand this to 3 or 4 attack groups depending on numbers and attack multiple targets as distraction all the while setting up the real target attack .

You attack soft targets , and avoid direct encounters unless you are keeping them busy while taking the real objective .

A lot of people see WvW as a big zerg but there are a lot of tactics that can be used , other then sheer numbers ,



Trippn Hazrd / Gisfred GSCH

» Edited on: 2012-10-26 10:59:18

» Edited on: 2012-10-26 11:05:04

» Edited on: 2012-10-26 13:28:45

^ agree completely. Soft target vs Real target coordination is key in offensive situations.

Is defense just as important as offense?
yes. They go hand in hand. A certain level of each is needed in all situations. From my experience in WvW so far there has been two different definitions of what a "Good Defense' is.

1) Halting an enemy take over completely. Usually this occurs when the Orb is threatened, or its our last standing control point. IF this is the goal of the defense then nearly ALL resources need to be poured into the defensive effort in order to make the enemy attack stop as quickly as possible. The longer this takes the longer the rest of your controlled points are vulnerable to attack by the third party. The most ideal situation would be to have a small task force aside from the main defense out there capping some supply camps to try and draw some enemy away from the main attack - OR even have that small attack force picking off the enemy returning one by one from the spawn point. If some supply camps (or even a tower) are captured it would also allow us to predict where the enemy may focus after their failed attempt OR allow us to have a starting place if we fail to repel the main attack.

2. Slow down the enemy attack to make it take as long as possible. This is usually a suicide situation - accepting the fact that the control point IS going to be taken, but your goal is to make the attackers spend the maximum amount of time to take it. This goal does not require a large force. This is where the siege becomes extremely important. A group of 10 with strategically placed siege can repel a squad attack for quite a while. In the meantime the majority of our force should be off preparing to either take back what is being taken (more easily done now because of the lack of upgrades) or attacking a new target all together. If a large enough friendly force can be focused on a new target it may draw enough attention away that the initial enemy attack to make them stop.

All defense, or ALL offense will of course never work. The level of attack vs. offense needs to be based on the priority of whats being attacked or defended. If a random tower on the opposite side of the map is being taken over it may be more ideal to just let it go rather than send our entire force over there to stop it. Let the enemy have somewhere to be, this way we can know where the enemy is at.

The problem with pure offense is that we often tend to over stretch our capabilities. Spread ourselves too thin. Ive seen numerous occasions where one side owned the entire map, and then lost half of it within an hour because they didnt have the man power to defend EVERYTHING. This often happens when a guild hosts and scheduled event and pawns the map, only to leave it in the hands of PUGS. IMO the best method is to allow the enemy to always have something - let them think they are doing ok - and only smash them if they try to pull any tricks like setting up trebs to take down the walls at Bay Keep. This more easily allows us to predict their location, and to also make upgrades while building defensive seige. Running supply and protecting caravans may not sound as fun as "whoa looksy here! we own zee whole map!! So pawnt!" but its better strategery :) IMO.

But then again... what do i know?

» Edited on: 2012-10-26 13:51:24

A great defense is the greatest offense in my honest opinion.

A rearguard, defense force, and an attacking force is basically what it comes down too (once again in my eyes). The rearguard protects the supply camps, and dolyaks. The defense force will usually reside in the most important fortification and repair, upgrade, build, and protect against invaders.

The attacking force can be anything from one large zerg to many smaller groups that basically pressure the other server into defending their assets instead of fully focusing on taking the important fortification.

What makes the beginning saying true is when you have a group like Sea of Sorrows, sometimes attacking will work.. but only for a short time. That is when defense is key to survival.

Yesterday I saw this tactic become a reality when I was leading a SoS borderlands offensive. We took Ascension Bay where defense force held position, attack force attacked the AH keep and Stargrove while defense force built up AB. Rearguard protected our South from SoS parties.

In the end, we eventually lost our attacking force due to the guild leader logging for the night. When this occurred the remaining attacking force got mixed into the defense force and rearguard to bolster our numbers against what was the entire SoS force on their borderlands pushing on Ascension Bay. We held them off of the Ascension Bay Keep Lord for a good eight hours, until I made the mistake of not seeing a heavily damaged inner wall on the keep (lesson learned).

I think if the attacking force was kept around and pushing on enemy fortifications, the end result probably wouldn't have occurred until much later on in the night.

I naturally am a rather passive commander, I prefer defense over offense.. so when collaborating with a commander that understands how to do an offensive.. I think the tactic would have worked even better when the time arose to see it in action.



» Edited on: 2012-10-26 14:32:30

Havaldan

I agree that a strong defense is key to any battle. Some places are taken as key objectives, perhaps to further your advance. I see these as being fortifiable and defendable. Other places are taken as diversions from the main objective, and require little to no defense or fortification.

Ultimately though, being able to fortify and defend, and hold a position for any length of time requires supply....and in many cases, lots of it. In my opinion, taking your objective, then controlling the supply lines, are the first step to a good defense.


» Edited on: 2012-10-29 16:18:40

It can be tiring running around in circles taking points only to have the enemy Zerg on the opposite side doing the same thing.

I like to setup some defences by having just a team of 5 stay behind capped keeps while the main group push forward. This slows down the opposing Zerg while at the same time allowing our Zerg to catchup in the rotation.

You need fewer manpower to defende a keep than take one.

So yes, I believe defence is just as important as offence.

Look at the scoreboard. Do we get points for taking or holding? We only get point for what we HOLD at the end of the period. This creates some cross purposes between players wanting XP and the server in general wanting the points. Not to mention the excitement. And entertainment is what we paid our money for. This is the Commander Problem. ;p

This game is very different from others in one major respect. SUPPLY matters! I propose that it is the only thing that really matters long term.

What is a keep for? Protecting it's supply and towers. Towers are for protecting supply.

You don't take a keep and then control supply. You control supply and then take the keep. You don't defend a keep from within, you protect a keep at its supply points. And as you may have noticed, the siege at a keep is in position to do just that.

Just sayin'.

Reacher Cossatot

Dexteram Trinity

From what I've gathered, defending is a lot easier with people who are more knowledgeable about siege equipment. It does no good to place a ballista in the wrong spot, just as it does no good to try and defend against a superior number of attackers with just your basic weapon skills. A well placed catapult can be the key piece of the puzzle when somebody puts a series of catapults on a nearby hill, or a few rams at your door.

One of the most important things to remember about pushing back a siege is that they are in the heat of the moment once they're at your door. They won't be bothered if orange swords pop up on the other side of the map, period. They will attack with single-minded determination until either they see large red numbers over their heads or they've won.

The single most effective means of pushing back a siege is to quickly down even just a fraction of them in a brief time.

Therefore, if you even want to consider defending an objective for any length of time (i.e. Garrisons, keeps, Stonemist..), your very first thought should be toward catapults and arrowcarts, and the next thought should be to assign one scout to stay nearby that location, or en-route to it from the enemy's territory.

Is it important??... most definitely yes! Because wiping out the enemy while they're in their most vulnerable position, that frenzied mode of attack, is all it takes to turn the battle back to fighting on your own terms, where you're the ones making the decisions instead of reacting.

The question is not framed correctly imho. 

There are two ways to go about things, one is aligned with edge of the mists and karma trains the other with world vs. world

Taking stuff is good, holding is what scores points. If you flip opforce1's garrison but they flip it back before tick you gained some personal wxp and such but the server got nothing out of it, by the same token if you flip prime targets right before tick, and then let them get flipped back after the server and player both gain. 

Now to flip everything at just the right time just can not be done which is where holding comes into play.

Holding involves dropping and maintaining some siege, having scouts watching vital locations, and having people willing and ready to respond to major incursions. 

See offense and defense work hand in hand, either without the other is a loosing proposition.  What makes or breaks a server in world vs. world are the scouts.  They provide the difference between stopping a huge golem rush at an outer gate and frantic rez and run back battles in the lords room

This thread is 2 years old and we can ignore the orb comments (orb was removed). I want as many people to read this thread as possible though, so I am glad you bumped it Delekhan

nice bump there :) . It is also a bonus if the scouts were capable of laying sieges. The comments above were good reads. Right now we are known to be defensive  on our BL imo.

[Ph/PF/RA]Slytherin
Noob lone commander looking for On-the-job trainings

   Lock down your Home BL first and above all other areas.  Keep it upgraded, seiged and sentried if possible while you push elsewhere. That is the key to winning the ppt game and the Tier. 

Taking all of EB or another Borderland is waste of time and resources if you lose your Home BL in the process.  Everything you've gained there is offset by losses.

Primal Fury / Sanctum of Rall
Raf Longshanks 80 Guardian / Shai Vulfspawn 80 Necro / Furly Longshanks 80 Ranger / Bellae Donnah 80 Ele / Sierra Thresh 78 Thief / Mystria Selawyll 80 Mes / Freya Longshanks 80 Engie / Selya Steelbane 80 Warrior

Its about juggling balance, situation and morale.

Since PPT is the current scoring agent in the weekly matches it comes down to what you can take, hold and when. We still have an on/off again WvW force that is smaller, but that doesn't mean we can't do a lot with that. We do need to get ready for larger enemies if we out score our tier and move up. Balance comes into play since you need to decide what's a priority, how much can you hold of yours and claim of theirs. The decision is more complicated when we are talking about cross map objectives. When talking about the same map we should always strive to hold an updated objective over talking a lower tier asset. Don't retake hills that is T1 if they are taking a T2-T3 Bay from us. Don't be mislead by a tap, but be willing to pull off if needed if its more than tap. Leave a token force to take the empty and use the bigger force to deal with the more appropriate threat. We still seem to be known for running in masses, wrong or right. Its very easy for people to flip into the KTrain mentality which can lead to using excessive force on a target. Show of force is different and intentional. 

Havocs - 1-5 peeps, if you have more than your not really a havoc anymore. Use them to distract, hit smaller targets, and call them back in if needed to hit bigger targets. Seen some commanders use these really well. Fun sight was one commander popped into an enemy map that they knew was lightly defended. He sent 3 people to SW/NW camp, 3 to SE/NE camp, took band cleared guards on Bay left 5 with ram, did the same on Garri and Hills. Had camp takers go to their sides keep after camps. In the 15 min tick he took all but Garri since the other side had to react but couldn't split up and could only repel one. People didn't get much loot but the reward was pulling all the enemy forces back to their home. 

Scouts/Sentries - Yes we can always use more. Seen some great practices out there. Nal's habit of asking people to do just ten minute stints is great and people seem to respond well to it. But if you park people and don't react when they tell you there is trouble then you will discourage them in future. Likewise leaving them on a map for an hour as you hit another map will probably discourage them as well. Coaching them to not be decoyed isn't bad though. Misdirection is the key role of Havoc squads and some skirmishers. 

Siege is a bigger discussion. I don't get why people don't refresh siege they pass, unless you are rushing to an objective. Dropping siege when running with a Commander is never a good idea since they are probably managing their supply. When not running w/ a Commander dropping defensive siege shouldn't be discouraged if the supply is not being taken from an actively upgrading structure or draining from a fully upgraded structure below a defense point. Troll siege a side mind you. I also can't fault people if they deploy some regular siege if they think no one will ever use or refresh. In an active defense though using higher quality siege is important, more so if supply is limited. 

Situation is also a big factor, our Commanders have to make some hard calls at times since we have limited numbers. Support them when you can. Its easy to be a back seat driver (oh and I am one as well), but provide them with intel they need (INC is not INTEL). Creating dissent in the middle of a dust up isn't going to help. Many are receptive to comments and some to tells, but unless you want to put on the funny hat support them if you run with them, else head elsewhere. Other sides true as well, Commanders should be willing to realize that at times some people are moving in opposite directions and sharing info can prevent good intentions from creating hard feelings or mishaps. If you have a group running opposite of your plans try and let them know before assuming they are trolling. 

Morales the biggie, everyone likes shinnies. Sadly defense doesn't lead as much to the shinnies and therefore people have to juggle the morale of their troops. We just need to mindful that not defending can lead to a much harder time and a  bigger lose of morale as people see things they spent hours on be lost. Once again more concerned with this when people are already on a map versus when are talking cross maps. Some people like homeland, EB, stronger/weaker enemy borderlands, that's a choice thing that can't be changed, but if you are already there with the troops, make sure it's not just the shinnies that is leading you. Now same token, taking a massive force off a map that's under assault to attack empty structures  versus trying to hold something we have that's been maxed out is very damaging to morale and discourages people from doing defensive activities. I agree we don't want to hold one objective and lose everything else, but not trying to defend it all should be avoided when possible. 

2 cents,

Good hunting!

Envy the Madman his musings when Death comes to make Fools of us all.

The Murder Junkies
GW1/PoTBS/WAR/GW2/CU

By nature, in any type of Siege Warfare game, I prefer to defend.  Again... defense is my strongest preference of game-play, regardless of the game.

That being said, the WvWvW scoring system for Guild Wars 2 is not designed to be "defender friendly".  The mechanics of WvWvW combat are not designed to be "defender friendly".  The system is designed, whether by purpose or not, to quickly transfer ownership of objectives, not to hold onto objectives for the long term.  Which is completely confusing, considering the large amount of time that it takes to make simple upgrades to a keep.

Its just not a very well designed system, and sadly, regardless of preference of play style, or whether or not defending "should be important", in most cases, defending is a waste of time, resources and manpower and will kill any PPT gains in a matter of a few hours.

What seems to work well, is having a guard and response teamwork system.  One or two people hanging out in the objectives that you wish to maintain and defend, then when they come under a seriously threatening attack, the call goes out and the roaming offensive teams come rushing back to defend, repair then go back out again.

But overall, no, the mechanics of scoring and game-play in GW2 just doesn't support defending objectives, not if you're playing for PPT advantage.  Its something that ArenaNet really needs to look at overhauling, rather than putting all of their efforts into this Living Story stuff.  If anyone has been able to play Elder Scrolls Online, you will see a system that's better balanced to support both offense and defense styles of game-play.

We can discuss and debate defense versus offense til we are blue in the face.  At the end of the day, I believe there are just a couple things that we collectively are certain that we need to improve.

1) Defensive Siege. We MUST place defensive seige at least just prior to our NA prime time, where the biggest forces will hit us.  This will also let us have seige in place for the overnight crew to defend and hold off the light forces of our enemies. At a MINIMUM, 2 arrow carts and a gate treb at the south gates of Hills and Bay, and 2 arrow carts and a gate treb on each gate of Garrison. MINIMUM.  I would argue even more siege is necessary, such as 2 arrow carts and a gate treb on EVERY outer gate in EVERY keep, treb on the supply hut in Bay, treb on the gate in both north towers, 2 arrow carts in each north tower at the gate, treb in hills inner aimed at inner gate (and can counter NE camp trebs), gate treb in garri inner and arrow carts surrounding the circle of bay, hills, and garri.  But I know that if and when we build that (and sometimes we do), it will get lose due to no refresh.  Thats a good 20+ gold in seige.

2) Defensive Seige Refresh Timers: We MUST know when seige was refreshed last and have someone assigned to refresh the seige on a BL. Small havoc team in our home BL is PERFECT for this. Glorious job?  No.  Necessary?  YES.

3) Scouts:  SoR has played the offensive game quite well lately.  However, we have left 100% out of our home BL on many occasions, and left no one there to watch the map.  We NEED to have 2-3 people at a bare minimum to watch the map if we take our force into another map.  The map needs to be watched for swords at all times, with that scout rushing to the source of swords to get a good, solid scout report to the commander on another map. Glorious job?  No.  Necessary?  YES!

4) Scout Reporting: "INC!!!!" does not work!  "Zerg at Hills" does not work!  What works is this: "20-25 Kaineng at hills south gate, no seige down, desieging cannons." Or 15-20 Ebay at bay N inner, 2 rams down, gate @ 75%".  Always identify the WHO, the HOW MANY, the EXACT LOCATION, the DIRECTION MOVING (if moving), the SEIGE PLACED, and the STRUCTURE DAMAGE. The most inclusive scout reports allow the commander to make the best decisions when faced with multiple targets to defend.  Scouts should be CONSTANTLY updating the commander as things go on, such "10 more Ebay now at Bay N Inner, still 2 rams down, gate now at 25%".  The constant flow of information allows informed decisions to be made and proper defense to be made.

Just my thoughts as a commander that has seen the good and what needs improvement!

Combat Medic Barbie | Mist Walker Barbie | Rigor Mortis Barbie

Guild Leader of Chariot of Fire [FIRE]

We're still hoping for a WvW overhaul :)

As for the wvw mechanic, 'divide and conquer' is the most viable offense imo.

PPT sometimes contributes to the morale of new/ players. Before entering the mist, he/she might check first how are we doin this week. Will it be rewarding? will i just get stomped there? etc. Again, just my opinion.

Scouts and sentries should be a rotating job for everyone imo. It's to let other get 'shinies too' :) especially when these ppl also lays sieges on towers.

What I enjoy most in wvw is the havoc squads and the small-scaled fights. it really looks like PVP on a bigger map, with different enemies at the same time. How I wish we also have a rewards track for this mode of game :D

And still i'm still waiting for CU and let's see how's GW2 wvw team respond to this.

Enjoy the fights! have fun !

[Ph/PF/RA]Slytherin
Noob lone commander looking for On-the-job trainings