Sanctum of Rall & WvW - Proposal

Fog:

Thank you for sharing this strategy.  Unfortunately, I cannot make the meeting tonight (I have a standing meeting every Fridays).  However, I wanted to share my support of the idea.  I can imagine that it might not be to everyone's liking, but it is a great strategy to help address everyone's game style/preference.  It also helps to address the PPT vs. bags issue.  It may not be perfect, but it helps to set expectations to help keep everyone happy (and have fun).

I see the focus is to maintain our PPT for our home borderland and EB.  The only question I would have is with training.  I was excited to see all those people last week trying out WvW for the first time (and enjoying it) and also those who participated to learn more.  However, it seemed as if during those times our biggest group was the training group.  In the earlier stages of rebuilding, would this make it difficult to maintain PPT during training times?  Should some training still be held in our home borderland?

One other thought.  It would be great (perhaps at a later time) when training can be done in EB.  Most of my experiences has been in the borderlands, so I have some understanding of scouting and strategies most commanders use.  However, EB is a different map requiring different strategy.  I assume with training primarily being in BLs, others would fall into this category as well.  I'm rambling....

Great idea, and I look forward to its implementation.

Thank you for bringing this all together and for your contributions in such a giving way.

SEagle

Soar on wings like EAGLE -- SEagle

I can also tell you from experience, that commanding on EB is completely different then commanding on one of the primary borderlands. However, as far as being in a group, and following a commander, not much changes in what the group has to do. It mostly falls on the commander to know the different strategies and be prepared. I highly encourage people to get out in EB and explore the map, but I don't think you necessarily need to train troops there. The same basic principles from the other maps still apply there.

Going off the other point SEagle made, yes, the biggest groups that have been out there this week has been when there was a training session going on, but under a good commander, those training groups can still give PPT on whatever map they are training on, while learning the way of WvW. To make another point, a lot of things that go on in WvW, such as game mechanics, can, and probably should be taught first OFF the battlefield, so that people know what to expect,  before trying to remember those concepts on the battlefield. Much like I did Monday night with Combo fields; CC, Stability, and using stealth, are all things that can and probably should be worked on outside of WvW in a relaxed enviroment.

Furthermore, just because a BL is being used for training, doesn't mean that we can't have people on that map. Yes, the outmanned buff is nice for training, but it isn't necessary. Right now, we don't have to worry about it because we really don't have that many players sitting in WvW all the time, but give it a month or two and I expect that numbers may be back on the rise. If that's the case, then the training group will be running on the BL as another group. And that's fine, but to those that are on that BL and not in the training group, you need to remember patience and not expect perfect execution during a defense. Still, there was some work made this week that proved that, even with players learning and training in WvW, most the workload will lie on the commanders, because a solid commander will be able to direct and move troops in a way that will allow victory. I hope that we can all work together and maintain patience, and that anybody who joins in with us will also be able to take the hits and keep coming back with that calm demeanor.

I consider myself to be good at WvW, though I wouldn't say I'm one of the most skilled by a long shot, and looking over this plan, I see it to be a good starting place to move forward as a server and community. I truly expect us to gather together as a server and come together in a way that never truly happened before. Can't wait to see you all out there and remember guys, have fun!

Aingeal:

I had the pleasure of following you a few times last week.  While I miss some of the commanders from the other group, I am so glad to have met new ones such as yourself.  I appreciate your knowledge, your willingness to adapt to each situation, and your willingness to teach others.

My question regarding the training was not so much questioning whether a commander who is training can contribute to PPT.  I believe that is indeed possible since you proved it last week.  I was just commenting that the current recommendation (looking at chart) was to have training conducted on a different BL other than the home BL.  I understand the point on this.  However, in the early stages of the rebuilding process when training seems to pull people into that group leaving other maps somewhat scarce, should we consider some flexibility to train on the home BL?  As you mention, as we continue to grow and there is sufficient numbers in the other BLs, then perhaps training can exclusively be done in a non-home BL.  Just a thought.

Oh, and about EB, I quite understand your point.  I just sometimes like to understand some of the strategies in EB.  In BLs I don't mind volunteering to do a quick run for supplies, scout, and assist a "temporary" havoc group for distractions.  However, in EB I feel like a mindless soldier.  This is a minor issue, but I guess I'll learn with time as I did in BL.

Off to my other meeting.  I hope you all have a great meeting!!!

Thanks,

SEagle

Soar on wings like EAGLE -- SEagle

I am concerned that we are dedicating a full map to Karma Train...  While I see where on paper leveling a toons WvW rank helps, in reality though if a person has no understanding of how to use say a Treb, then what difference will it make if they have any points in it?  I have been involved in GW since the start of GW1.  People would always complain that there was not enough levels, they wanted more.  In GW2 they gave them more, then those same people now just grind there way up while complaining about how long it takes.  They find short cuts such as Trains.  The way I see it, leveling in this game be it WXP pr XP in general is like a tutorial.  It gives you practice, as you become efficient you become better. 

"While keeping the other borderlands completely papered and even get some PPT in the process?" -Benjamin 

Keeping an opponents BL paper is good, same with getting our players toons to 80, however lets not kid ourselves and think PPT will result from this process.  As much as our train wants to take things for the loot, karma and leveling they want our opponents to take it back equally as much.  As much PPT we can expect to get this way will be a result of players taking the easy route who would normally be in another borderland helping to gain it there.

I am fine with a train if that is really what the community wants and that is what it will take to get people involved, but is promoting it everyday every week what we all want?  In the past it has traditionally been Fridays before reset and or Thursday afternoons/nights.

I am just rambling with thoughts, and figured I would throw this out there.  Please remove this when things are finalized because no matter what the community does I am behind it 110%. 

Mistress Collisto|Molly Oakenheart|Lena Andersdotter|Heather Jones
Guild Leader of [JADE] www.Immortalizedin.enjin.com

I won't be able to attend server meetings due to time difference, but I visit the sites very often to follow up.  I would suggest the following:

1. training sessions everyday if possible.  Cmd can announce the raid before he goes in, to gather ppl. Karma train is only held on Friday when we would like to relax more, or when we couldn't do much for ppt. Actually there could not be much difference between both.  This is because we can hop map to flip paper objects quickly wihle put scouts in SOR bl.  Cmd can train ppl according to the situation, such as how to use sieges or how to scout..etc.  Fliping things can give what ppl in train seeks.  Official karma train needs to be arranged with other servers, which may be more difficult to do.

2. We can have a session per week  to take guildies or even ppl on the server to JP in wvw.  This can be arranged as a whole server event, or by individula guild. This not only flip sieges for cmd who is in need, , but also give ppl chests.  This is how my guild used to do it:

Two mesmers. cmd who need sieges and a few ppl go into JP.  After mesmers are ready for port, cmd pin up by the chest. A few ppl go to LA and 4 wvw maps to announce for port, and tell them to broadcast it in guild chat.   Then we would kindly advise ppl to donate sieges to cmd if they don't need it.   Then we can setup another sessions for valunteers to craft superior sieges.

This is a great plan. I'll keep it in mind while I command. I may run a training session/ karma train on an undetermined weekday this week to help people get Map Completion and learn WvW. It'll likely be a spur of the moment thing one night this week.

Quote by Benjamin Foghladha:

• "Skilled PvP - These players are our knights. They know the mechanics inside and out and can give you a dissertation on what a blast finisher is and what it means to stack might. These players will lead the charge in WvW and usually are out there every moment of their playtime. 


• Casual PvP - These players are just learning the mechanics. Some of them may aspire to be a Skilled PvPer in time while others just want to come out and kill things and have a good time. You can not force these players to become Skilled PvPers as all you will do is cause them to give up trying. Casual players tend to do what they can when they can and don't have a lot of time to spend in WvW to begin with.


• New & Curious PvPers - There are several people who have not encountered WvW or maybe have only encountered the Elite WvW attitudes of days past and gave up trying. These players will play WvW if we give them the incentive and give them a taste of what it should be like. However we need to be aware that these players do not know everything there is to WvW and are still learning. If we give them an avenue to learn and build upon their experiences we can further their growth in the WvW Community.


• Karma Train / PvErs - People love to blame them for all the woes of the world however they too have a place and should be given an outlet to do what they do best. The karma train is excessively good at getting troops their WvW ranks up, filling bags with loot, and leveling up players to prepare them for WvW. You can look at it this way, would you rather they bring their level 2 into Garrison on SOR Borderlands in the middle of a 3 way fight where they provide instant rezes to all our enemies or would you rather them keep the enemy busy on another map and gain some levels while doing it all the while keeping the other borderlands completely papered and even get some PPT in the process? The karma train is a great place to live long enough to gain some levels and learn how to survive before getting thrown head first into WvW. ''
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  • Many people do not enjoy killing other people, and prefer exploring, non-player killing, and social aspects of the game.
    
    
    
    • A karma train is a good way to get them involved.
    
    
    
    
  
  
  
  

I think its a good way to generalize a majority of the player population. The best plan would consider as many different types of players as possible. Its somewhat related to how I would generalize the player population through anthropological hypotheses. Anyways, our priority should lie with rebuilding our reputation and getting most of the scorned players on our server to retry WvW again. So this is a great blueprint for our WvW. We want to have a place for as many different people as possible as often as possible. Then we could recruit newly scorned players from other servers to our server. Sadly this may happen relatively soon and I've already seen some posts on the official and on other forums.

Since I'm relatively a newer commander and have experience as an adult educator, I'll stick to running trainings and karma trains for now since there is less pressure to perform and that's where my experiences lie. I've been playing WvW for a majority of my playing time and understand combat mechanics but only recently decided to start commanding.

Wayne, thanks for the idea about the jumping puzzles. I may start doing it sometime. I just have to relearn the puzzles first.

Buckeyecro, thanks for giving me some inspiration by the line "Many people do not enjoy killing other people, and prefer exploring, non-player killing, and social aspects of the game.".   My first guild is EMP, which is wvw hardcore.  Thus, all my idead about wvw is from there and I didn't realize some ppl don't enjoy killing other ppl. Now this gives me an idea, though I don't think it can work because it will require ppl to give up representing their own guild.

My idea is to build guilds for SOR as a whole server.  1 guild is for more wvw hardcore ppl (called wvw guild), who enjoy/want to master open fights. People need to be willing to change builds that achieve this goal.  Another guild is for ppl who enjoy exploring/caping objects (call caping guild).  People in this guild would need to learn siege placement, defending and offending. They can be more dps, but need enough healing or toughness. These 2 guilds help each other in the following sense:  wvw guild would be the protection network for caping guild.  They are the first in and last out.  It means, they are first in to clean guards, scouts during object cap, and last out after capping or open fight. Also they are the first 1 in to hold objects when it is attacked until we have more force to help (With right builds, 2 guardian and 3 warriors can hold 30 ppl and kill them slowly).  They are the frontline and also the backline to cut tails to allow escaping, if posible.  As for caping guild, their goal is to cap asap and to help holding objects.    In the meantime, we may have ppl who like to roaming alone.  We will need to communicate well to help each other.  That leads to the following.

From what I see this week, we need to communicate on the map.  Cmd need to be on ts. If they can't for some reason, they still need to give message in map chat so all ppl know what is the current plan.  Other ppl not with cmd should also inform the cmd about their plan (so we don't have both party attacking the same objects in different gate! ).  Cmd could also ask for help from roaming ppl too.  The point is to keep everyone informed and help each other.

From my experience, all ppl can help on the map even if we don't have a cmd.  We just need to see what to do and communicate (thus we need some training or ppl with a bit experience).   However, we need very experienced cmd to train for open fights and counter sieges.  

I am willing to help whatever I can.  Buckeyecro. I share the account with my husband, and I only play mesmer.  I can have my husband help you for the JP if you need (play time is around 6-8am server time for him).   I can tell you the position mesmer should port.

I know the above idea for wvw/capiong guilds may not work, but that is the idea to allow multi play style for SOR, while we can do something properly in wvw.  I know for sure about 1 thing.  If we can't or not willing to support wvw ppl, we won't be able to achieve something, which may cause frustration and them leaving.  Then casual ppl in wvw may easily get killed and not getting loot bag or experience they want.  If we can't or satisfy casual ppl, they won't be willing to be trained or help.  It is a bad loop again. So, let's try to help each other.

In the mean time, I have guardian and warrior builds that is proved great for long time. You'll have fun when you are not always killed by enemies. You'll have fun when you can cap objects successfully.  If anyone needs the builds, pls mail me in game or talk to me on ts (the name is Legendary Vic). I can also get my guardian master to talk to you if any query (he is crazy cos he has 11 sets of gears, but that says something).

Sounds like a good plan, and you have my full support as I command!

Combat Medic Barbie | Mist Walker Barbie | Rigor Mortis Barbie

Guild Leader of Chariot of Fire [FIRE]

I am not sure how to make some progress for the plan, but I am opening up my guild as a name list for ppl who play wvw more, willing to learn to improve. I take in about 4 ppl last night and hope to get more.  My play time is about 6-9am server time.  If anyone would join us and play around that time, pls contact me.

I haven't been really a cmd and only know a bit tips, so we need help each other. 

Xivor, The above plan actually works in small (havoc) and large (guild or server) scale.  You can adopt it in your guild.  :)  It is like a variation of frontline/backline idea.

Wayne, I'll contact you sometime for help with the jps. ;)

I'm going to add you as a friend in game; hopefully we can get something going. ;)   I'm usually on 12 hours different than you guys but I will try to find time to play when you guys usually log on.

Absolutely, we HAVE to make sure everyone feels welcome, needed, and wanted in our community, so we should allow for some flexibility in our overarching plans and cooperate with each other. Most especially considering the major extremes: The Killers and Non-Killers. This way we can re-establish a positive reputation and morale base.

There's a builds forum on this site that we can use to list our more effective builds. I'll write a guide for engineers and post it here. I'm still testing Engineer commanding builds and guidelines but got non-commanding builds down.

I just tried to tell ppl how to use mesmer portal between spawn and garri/2 north tower to defend more effeciently last night.

I can also tell you the position.

Oh, engi is great in wvw.  It can be extremely tanky, almot losing no health, and good for cmd, as it aoe heals (I know as my husband play engi).

This makes me think  of some "trolling party".  Me and my firends were thinking about 1 thief and 4 mesmers party.  That would drive ppl crazy. I wonder what would happen if we have 5 extrememly tanky, healing engi as frontliners.  If engi can do that, and some dmg or annoying stuff, watching enemies getting mad is fun.

Add me to your friends lists as well.  Us Commanders that are stepping up need to get communicating and talking to one another.  I just returned from a 2 week vacation, so you should see more of me soon!

Combat Medic Barbie | Mist Walker Barbie | Rigor Mortis Barbie

Guild Leader of Chariot of Fire [FIRE]

Xivor, surely I will ( i think i have had done it)

Sad, I don't have a pin as I don't know how to lead.  I just keep eyes on map and know a few tips.

I don't know couter siege placement and can't lead open fights.  If someone can help on that  :)