Season 3 Tournament Feedback - Pros & Cons

I want to make a special call-out to all the new players and guilds who joined us for WvW lately. I'm thinking about the guys from ECTO and SIN, our new friends from VEX and BOMB, and far too many more to name. I hope you guys had a blast and will keep joining us in the future.

An extra-special call-out to Eko. You've been doing the hard-but-necessary work of teaching SoR to cap AND HOLD again and it is much appreciated. Also, sorry for the couple times I yapped at you for taking supply from camps I was trying to upgrade. 

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Karaoke (Loki | Oaky | Pokey | Smokey | Croaky | Cloaky | Soaky | Gnocchi)
Guild Leader - Super Mega Happy Fun Time [MEGA] - supermegahappyfuntime.com

Since I created the thread, I want to start off.

PROS

• RESET PUSHES. I really liked our reset pushes.  We pushed out strong, and we were a force to be reckoned with. We utilized CCOMS to their highest potential on reset I think. We had more guild support on reset than any other night, which helped.  Even smaller guilds only fielding 5 were a huge help, because that was one more havoc team we didn't have on other days


• WAYPOINT RUSHES. This is a strategy that we have started using on a smaller scale on SoR.  Not every guild or player agrees with it, but I think there have been benefits.  On reset night, I know VEX focuses on northern SoR defense, rushing the WP on garrison and getting our north towers to T3.  Perfect strategy, because that WP early on in Garri can save the day when trying to run forces to Bay/Hills for defense.  FIRE focuses on rushing the WP in EBG.  Typically, our two main keeps are the first waypoints out of all servers on reset night. And I think there are strategic strengths to this. I highly consider others to learn the strategy for our major keeps.  Something to consider, too...when rushing WP's, cannons and mortars get built first. Even on poorly seiged keeps, these cannons and mortars are a HUGE help!!!! And if we are hit, these are more things that the enemy will try to take out in order before trying to cap.


• HOME/EBG CORNER CAMP UPGRADES. I have seen an increase in focusing on upgrading our northern camps and our EBG corner camps for fat yaks, pushing supply into our towers and keeps at a much faster rate.  I know with FIRE, we try to never take supply from home camps on EBG if we have upgrades building, instead pushing out to the enemy camps and capping them to drain for supply for seige. Increases PPT, and manages our resources better.


• ZONE OFFENSE/DEFENSE. This is something that I have been very turned on to.  It works well in EBG.  Guild/Group A focuses on capping and holding the enemy Mendons/Speldon/Anz.  Guild/Group B focuses on EBG corner defense. Guild/Group C focuses on capping/holding Bravost/Durios/Umberglade.  This strategy WORKS, and is perfect for small guild groups pulling 5-10 in numbers.  Cap, seige, defend, upgrade.  Two small guild groups can add 50 points to the PPT for a good period of time doing this.  MEGA did this one night in EBG and held Mend/Anz/Spel the entire reset night one week.  I was amazed at how well it worked.  This can also be done for recapping our BL.  Zone offense to retaking what was taken from us.  It seems like VEX and GSCH do this for reset nights on home BL.  I love this tactic!


• INITIAL SCOUTING/CCOMS. Coming into the tournament, our scouting was impeccable and our defensive seige was about the best we can have.  The first match, we had solid defense and scouts consistantly throughout the week. CCOMS were so well used, that I actually had complaints that TOO MUCH INFORMATION was being shared on CCOMS.  That is a good problem to have!


• COMMANDER COMMUNICATION. I think we improved in this area.  Even if CCOMS were not being used, it seemed like major guild commanders were working together better overall.  FIRE was able to work with MEGA, VEX, KOGS, EG, GSCH, and RA commanders quite well.  When forces were on the maps, generally speaking, forces seemed to work together and back each other up. I like when Peanut comes on EBG, he messages me, lets me know his overall intent on the map, and tells me to let him know if we need support.  This helps a LOT! Several times, I have been able to give shoutouts to Jonny or Aleman, and depending on the nature of their battles in their BL's, they have been able to respond for either a defense of our EBG keep or an offense on a very wide open SMC.  Remember however, not every group can respond at every time.  What may seem like a rough situation in our corner may not be as important as the work that the other guild is doing on their map!  

CONS

• CONSISTENCY!  We tend to come into the tournament or each match real strong, but we burn ourselves out in the early stages.  We need to find a healthy medium and keep the same level of consistency in our force, in our CCOMS, in our scouting, and in our defense throughout the week and throughout the tournament. We tend to come into the matches strong, but once Sunday hits, we heavily lose ground.  Sunday and Mondays are the weakest for us, which causes us to lose morale into Tuesday.  I think if some guilds can reconsider their raid times and raid on Sundays and Mondays, we could balance this out.  If we come out of the weekend with a stronger overnight, morale will be higher into the weekday and I think the casuals will keep coming out.


• COVERAGE. We need guilds to bolster coverage.  I get it.  I had a 110 person guild that was considering SoR (in addition to YB, IoJ and another server).  The running was between SoR and IoJ.  They went to IoJ. Many of you don't know how much interaction I have with guilds on other servers in order to bring people to SoR.  Ask VEX.  I collaborated with them for a month before they came here, with multiple meetings on their TS. What we need to do is ensure that our selling point is a truthful selling point: and that is this community here.  We need to ensure our community is strong.  We cannot sell numbers and coverage.  We cannot sell a winning record.  But we can sell a community, and that is why the guilds that have come here are here. Let's build our community, and I can use this to sell to other guilds.


• SPLIT TACTICS. 60 man groups are great and have their place.  5 man havoc groups have their place.  But, I have seen a LOT of strength (especially in EB) coming from split tactics.  One force wants to take SMC, so prior to, they split off 5 people to go hit GoM keep, and one person to go cause their garri to get swords.  Then SMC getkitten.  That is one example.  Another will be to split the major force into 2-3 smaller forces and split for multiple towers/camps before tick.  Three 15 man groups are harder to take out than one 45 man group, and can allow for three towers and three camps to be taken in the last 5 minutes before tick, rather than just one tower and one camp.  This increases our potential PPT by 30 points for that tick.  By all means, merge together again after, but split off as needed for caps (and even flanking maneuvers for fights).


• COMMON ROLES FOR ALL GUILDS/PLAYERS. Guilds that specialize in being the major attack force still need to come back to home, refresh seige, lay out a few arrow carts and gate trebs, and regroup before pushing back out. Small havoc groups can also merge with the major forces on a temporary basis to assist with major caps.  We all have our strengths, but part of working as a team means sometimes we need to work outside the our perceived role to ensure that all areas of importance are covered.


• CONSIDERATION OF OTHERS. This one bugs me.  Our server has taken a hit in our community with the interaction between one and other and between guilds.  We need to repair this. We need to move outside of the box that only FIRE can do EBG.  That only VEX can defend home BL.  That only RA can be an attack force. Let's consider what other guild want to do for their raids.  Maybe GSCH doesn't want to be the home BL defense for reset every single week.  Consider that and step up to do your part. Let GSCH be an attack force.  Let RA be an EBG main force if they want to be, rather than a roaming attack force. Work together, communicate, and without fail, respect each other, even if you disagree.  AND DO NOT TROLL IN THE MAP CHAT!  This causes the casuals to see the dissent among players and guilds and this creates a more toxic environment! Come together and respect each other!

Combat Medic Barbie | Mist Walker Barbie | Rigor Mortis Barbie

Guild Leader of Chariot of Fire [FIRE]

This tourny was a great chance to test ourselves, I learned alot.  Just when I think ive got the perfect setup in a tower the enemy shows me a weakness I hadnt considered! 

Things I would like to see are more tags on the map, even for small havoc groups.  This helps me keep in touch with the ebb and flow of the battle.  I can see where others have been and follow along with the map watching their trail of captures.  If I see they hit something and then respawn, I might go where they just left to see if the gate is fully repaired, if not hit it again while its still weak. 

Now that we are on solid footing with defense, I think the next step is gaining tactical oversight, or what I affectionately refer to as Squirrel Fighting!  A simple example; see orange swords on another colors keep, time to rush smc because the bulk of players are occupied elsewhere.  Back in the Warhammer days, you could get 3 ppl on a keep and find it weak, then 20 other ppl out of no where, with out much communication at all, would show up and help finish the push.  When it was over, they faded back into the shadows.  Imagine the power of conjuring an army out of nothing.

To move the common player in this direction of understanding our forces need to be more visible.

I think multiple tags will also help with the "the only commander tagged down, guess I'll go to EOTM" problem. Or the "I tagged up to run a havoc but now I have 60 people taking a camp with me" problem.

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Karaoke (Loki | Oaky | Pokey | Smokey | Croaky | Cloaky | Soaky | Gnocchi)
Guild Leader - Super Mega Happy Fun Time [MEGA] - supermegahappyfuntime.com

For me, I enjoyed some of the fluidity and flexibility we unlocked over the course of the tournament.  We adapted to conditions.  We used the tried-and-true divide and conquer strategy, and were met with success.  We excelled in some areas (like WP building), yet fell short in others (like zerg defense).  Overall, I think our performance in the tournament was commendable.  While we may not take the podium, we can certainly take pride in the successes we did have, and the knowledge we gained to prepare us for the future.

High Points:

- As I mentioned, the divide-and-conquer strategy seemed to pay out.  It doesn't take a zerg to knock down an undefended tower.  Once the rams are built, splitting off a havoc force to claim or refuel at a nearby supply camp allows the action to continue.  Similarly, sending out small teams to check siege and upgrades is also an effective use of personnel.

- A few strategically placed defensive siege has been proven to repel a zerg force in numerous occasions.  Sometimes, the zerg is willing to endure to capture the point, but time and again we've seen them pull off after encoutering some resistance in hopes of finding a simpler target.

- Thanks go to the mesmers for their effective use of portals in moving teams into towers for defense, and for the portal bombs to catch the enemy off-guard.  Every team member is valuable, but I thought our growth in the mesmer department was outstanding.

Possible Improvements:

- We should look into developing some better zerg-busting strategies.  GoM has numbers, but we've seen that when divided, they reveal their weakness.  We should experiment to find ways to force them to divide.  Maybe that means sending out a bunch of teams to tap multiple targets simultaneously, forcing them to choose or divide.  Maybe that means increased pressure on their home BL to draw them off of EB, or vice-versa.

- We've had some good commander coordination, but I feel we could even improve that.  Nothing is more satisfying than pinching an enemy group between two and three well-coordinated forces.  Let's identify some choke points, set some bait, and converge.  Finding ways to demoralize the enemy will open up additional opportunities.  When SMC outer goes down, send two forces in and split them to two different gates - then send a third group to knock on their keep.  Create orange swords at a pivotal point, then break off and leave them wondering where we went.  Sometimes, the illusion of a zerg is as effective as the zerg itself in playing with the minds of the enemy.

That's all I've got for now.  Again - just my two cents.  Feel free to disagree :)

"I'm thinking about the guys from ECTO and SIN, our new friends from VEX and BOMB, and far too many more to name."

Wow, didn't expect a call out, seeing as how we're pretty casual and small in numbers (at least in WvW), but yeah ECTO definitely did have a blast, despite the beating we took a few times there. We will definitely be continuing our WvW antics after the tournament, and it's because of this community that we will be doing so. a big reason ECTO's members have avoided WvW up until recently is because we had horrible memories of what things were like in T1.

Spending a few weeks in the Mists with you guys has shown us that the guilds/players that remained on SoR are not the same elitist kittens from our T1 days, or if they are they've drastically changed. I don't feel like I'm going to be screamed at or insulted when I go into WvW anymore. There was a few times where I placed siege in the wrong places and EVERY time I did this I got a kind explanation of where to place the siege next time instead. That is SO much better than being belittled and insulted, like how I remember my previous WvW experiences.

That holds true for everything I did "wrong" the past few weeks. I'd like to shout out specifically to Eko, Karoke, and Peanut. I know I played with others but these 3 specifically I can recall teaching me things I didn't know and being incredibly patient and friendly about it. Xivor, I'd also like to thank you for messaging me in the first place. I know you were just messaging SoR guild leaders to see who would be interested in WvW, but you were very polite about it and I didn't feel pressured into anything. Since then you've been nothing but helpful to me and my guildies, so I appreciate that.

I know we may not play all that often, but we have a blast every time we do. Because of that we'll keep coming back for more. SoR for life! Thanks for the fun and for the wisdom, everyone. We'll see you on the battlefield!

» Edited on: 2014-10-10 14:33:29

- Charlie -
Guild Leader of Ascalonian Ghostbusters [ECTO] - an original SoR Guild - www.ectoguild.com
Current 80s - Arms Murphy (W)| Pumpsandabump (G)| Nicolas Rayge (R)| Karysta Raine (M)| Eiryn Blak (El)| Alexa Stoutcheste (T)| Billy The Kit (En)| Niteris (N)

I can only think of cons because I am actually an enormous sentient bucket of cold water irl so here goes.

The weakness I'm most frustrated with is an inability to communicate and integrate between people on TS and everyone else. There's a very strong current of Teamspeak master race going on which is understandable. It's definitely true that voice comms is technically superior to text. It's also true you don't need a mic to listen. Instead of brushing this problem off as something we can't do anything about because everyone who is not on TS trying to coordinate properly are a pack of lazy, heartless degenerate children, we should look for the part of the problem that lies in ourselves. I think we can always do something about it and it is in our best interest to as higher TS adoption will make us stronger in the long run. While coverage will get us consistency, inability to communicate is what will lose us big battles like that one night on Week 3 when we went down to nothing but Home Garry in the blink of an eye. These turnarounds damage morale. People don't like seeing +35 as our ppt at any time and if we're also behind at that point, that is the cue to give up.

Exhorting people to get on TS does not help much in the short term.

Many times I've heard commanders start off trying to get people onto TS and then grow frustrated when that produces no effect after a couple hours. It won't have much effect. Yes, sometimes, people just didn't turn it on and a reminder is all that's needed. However, overall TS adoption is a long term effort. This is great news, since we're fresh out of the tournament now and have time to push TS as much as possible. However, it may be an even longer term effort than that. When we get to the next tournament, in the midst of a battle, the likelihood of someone afking to tab out, google TS, download it, install it and then figure out the settings and then get onto the server are virtually zero. For the time being, commanders should recognize that text communications is a reality and those interested in rallying scattered Rallians on the map for big efforts should do more to engage text chat in an approachable way. Now, many commanders run guild-centric operations and aren't fussed if randoms don't crop up with their havoc and that's perfectly fine. However, what if a keep is threatened and that guild havoc gets converted into the core of the defense effort? As a player, that commander is well within her rights to carry on as is, but if she does not engage on text chat, the response will be muted compared to if she had. Telling people the situation and to please get on TS is still necessary, but inevitably, there are people who want to help but aren't going to pop on. In that case, text comms is better than no comms at all.

Why do people avoid TS?

0) People are lazy and don't like change. The lazy answer.

1) They are on TS - just not ours. This is often the case for me if I'm hanging out with guildies who are not in WvW or just chatting with friends outside of GW2 whilst playing the game. In this event, as a follower, I am depending on text chat and visual cues to stay abreast of things. This reiterates that map chat will always be a reality. We need to work with that divide in mind even as we minimize it.

2) They tried doing it before and felt it was an uncomfortable experience.

This is a serious matter because our WvW leadership is in large part defined by our server wide TS. If people avoid the TS server because they didn't like the way they're treated, separate themselves from it and don't follow, then the leadership's legitimacy is put into question. I know we're always doing our best to reduce drama on TS and to make it welcoming. In that case, that implies we were worse than we are in the past and that our brand is already damaged.

Maybe we should approach the issue differently. Instead of branding the non-TS community as the great intractable other, we should make a specific effort to engage lapsed users and those driven off by poor experiences in the past. Re-engaging people put off of the TS in the past in time for the next tournament should be a priority.

3) They tried it before and felt it didn't help.

"Is someone actually commanding?" or the like are comments I see a lot. Instead of brushing this off with rolled eyes, we should examine what causes this reaction from people who are initially interested in listening in but do not feel engaged by it after doing so.

One cause is lack of knowledge to understand what's going on. Some commanders are really good at explaining and giving the play by play while others probably don't realize how quiet they are or have groups that run so well and often only the most rarified jargon needs to be thrown around. I feel that more effort to explain the underlying logic behind actions would result in more engagement, as would acknowledging their contributions, asking them specifically to do simple but different things, etc. That way, people will feel involved in a way more intense than carrying supply, building and staying on tag. Those things are the WvW equivalent of flipping burgers and data entry. Once players realize that all they have to ever do is hop repeated on top of the commander, get supply and build any siege engine that appears in front of them, then they will feel that getting on TS and putting up with our sorry voices is no longer necessary. Getting people to regularly hop aboard the TS is just as important as getting them in there in the first time.

3a) One behaviour I want to call out in particular too is the tendency for most commanders to become audibly frustrated by people not being on tag. I am convinced that the vast majority of Rallians want nothing more than to hop repeatedly on top of their tag bearer of choice. We adore doritoes. We want to love you, run circles around you and hop up and down where you're standing. Even when we stray off the tag in combat and range, it's because we think (often incorrectly) that we would be more helpful that way. The only reason we would ever ever not want to be on tag is if we don't think it will help.

Engaging quiet followers is a fickle thing and there's a lot of things that we can't do much about. If we're outnumbered on maps, as we often are, and cannot win battles, then that damages morale for example. The moment battle is joined, players feel an urge to stay at range to survive and hopefully get a kill or two, etc. I want to say, however, that if I am following, one of the most demoralizing things is to have the commander call 'stay on tag', get into a fight, wipe, and then having the commander complain that people weren't on TS and weren't on tag. It doesn't matter that I know I am on TS and (if I'm melee) I probably was on tag because I've gathered the experience and familiarity with WvW to know why staying on tag is important and to actually do it. It shows the commander is not taking responsibility for the loss, lacks confidence in our ability to win and in our morale and that feels that we are not with him. Even if I'm doing all the right things and on TS to hear it, it tells me other people are not pulling their weight and subverts my trust in them. It also tells me I have one job and it's to stay on tag. If that's my one job, why in the world would I bother getting on TS again, especially if I assume the commander is on TS and will get all the coordinating sorted out and then put himself where he's needed? Whether the cause is a lack of skill level in the average Rallian WvWer, lack of morale, lack of TS or whatever, it's always the commander's call on where to put him or herself and she should be cognizant of what maneuvers her forces are capable of. Use what you have and not what you wish you had is something I stand by.

» Edited on: 2014-10-10 20:04:47

Hey Ruru, that's some really important feedback. I need to sleep on it, maybe re-read it, and think, but I definitely appreciate all the time you put into giving it.

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Karaoke (Loki | Oaky | Pokey | Smokey | Croaky | Cloaky | Soaky | Gnocchi)
Guild Leader - Super Mega Happy Fun Time [MEGA] - supermegahappyfuntime.com

"1) They are on TS - just not ours. This is often the case for me if I'm hanging out with guildies who are not in WvW or just chatting with friends outside of GW2 whilst playing the game. In this event, as a follower, I am depending on text chat and visual cues to stay abreast of things. This reiterates that map chat will always be a reality. We need to work with that divide in mind even as we minimize it."

Quick note: you can connect to multiple TS servers in one TS window. This is how I run in WvW 90% of the time. I connect to my TS server and enable my mic there so I can bullkitten with my guild and not clog up the SoR comms. I also join the channel of whatever map/group I'm in on SoR's server and listen in.

One really handy trick is that you can actually set up audio profiles as well, so (for me) on the SoR server the audio profile lowers the voice volume of that server. This means I can hear my guildies really clearly, but I can still hear the chatter in SoR TS as well. I keep whichever TS tab is the one with my mic disable open so that I can quickly enable my mic and speak if I need to. 

Now, I understand that this only works for very specific scenarios, I just wanted to make people aware that this is possible. This really only works well if you have a second monitor so you don't have to tab out to enable comms. But, the same holds true for people using RC or Vent or whatever, in those cases they'd just have to have 2 clients up. When you have audio profiles lower the volume of one of your voice comms, you'd be surprised how little the 2 interfere with each other. Just extra info, and again, I know that this is going to help maybe 5% of the community but I figure if it helps anyone it's worth it.

As for this bit:

 "one of the most demoralizing things is to have the commander call 'stay on tag', get into a fight, wipe, and then having the commander complain that people weren't on TS and weren't on tag. "

I HAVE heard this several times in TS and I completely agree with it. It is very demoralizing and it really sucks to hear. For me personally, well I was there when we were in T1 and I have been called a no talent scrub by commanders before (that was then obviously, not recent) just for not being on their tag 2 seconds after they called for it. Because of that I can shrug off the complaints of people not being on TS and chalk that up to being frustrated. I don't remember who it was, but I think I've only ever been in one wipe where a commander apologized and said that he made a bad call and shouldn't have had us rush in, maybe Jonny? I honestly don't recall who it was, but THAT, that admission of fault was more of a boost to the groups morale than blaming non-TS joiners could ever have been. 

Most everyone, if not everyone understands that mistakes will happen. Hell, often times it's a judgement call where it was a good call at the time and suddenly a minute later all hell breaks loose and it backfires horribly. It happens, no one is going to condemn a commander for a single wipe. For the most part I scout or I defend, so I don't have a ton of experience running with commanders and large groups on SoR, but I have done it before. This passing of the blame is definitely something I think needs work, but it's also something that I think has already been improved upon.

Also, thank you for not calling me a no talent scrub or any other ridiculous things when I ask questions or don't immediately hop on a tag as soon as you tell me to. I really appreciate that. : )

- Charlie -
Guild Leader of Ascalonian Ghostbusters [ECTO] - an original SoR Guild - www.ectoguild.com
Current 80s - Arms Murphy (W)| Pumpsandabump (G)| Nicolas Rayge (R)| Karysta Raine (M)| Eiryn Blak (El)| Alexa Stoutcheste (T)| Billy The Kit (En)| Niteris (N)

the whole get on tag thing...

most commanders run on a heavy class, either guard or warr who are up to their eye kitten in armor and stabos. They run full survival tank builds with a stacked group of support builds and thusly have a skewed perception of the battle. 

They run through an aoe kitten storm and come out the other side wondering... whats wrong with you ppl?! 

Try commanding as an engi with no stabo and minimal condi clear; the battle feels a lot different. 

Lets try the argument of not on tag cause running off to fight solo thief at rear of zerg.  Ive been that thief and I lol so hard when I pick of 3-7 players one at a time until they clash with another group then get wiped cause they are under strength. I like those disciplined groups who stay stacked while I free cast on them, shoving grenades up their kitten holes.

when the troops following me start to go in different directions, I take it as a warning sign.  I need to see what has their attention and squash it to keep the group together.

Ive also been picked off when trailing the rear and the commander keeps running like oh its your fault and I don't care!  When that happens I usually don't continue following that tag and I imagine others react the same.  Less ppl on tag, more wipes; cycle repeats till rage quit.

anyway, just my thoughts on the subject.