Why my guild just can't be bothered to care about WvW... but keeps showing up anyway

who are you expecting to read this?

I posted to the community forums.  My intended audience was community members, the ones that go that extra mile to read things in places like this.  Generally speaking, these are the same people that bemoan the lack of new people in WvW week after week--the same people that don't understand why their douchebaggery is having the negative impact that it does.

The ~100 hits the post has suggests that it has been read, so it has served its purpose.  With luck, maybe a few people have learned a little more about how to lead as a result; I can only hope so.

I get that you are trolling and all, Synosius, but this is the type of attitude that erodes the community.  I want to point out to everybody else that this type of attitude--the "who are you to talk" or "why are you XXXing", especially when it comes from an on-map commander, fragments what little population we have and keeps people from working together.  Lacking a vocal group shouting down those seeking to sow dissent, observers are compelled to concede that the community is hostile to them, and they should either keep quiet or go elsewhere.  Thus we perpetuate the problem of low numbers and stagnant growth.  And still, after all this, people don't understand why we are in this position.

IMHO Synosius isn't trolling he's just making a good point that if you really want your sentiments to be read in its entirety and taken to heart a wall of text is not the way :-D That being said I'd like to thank you for staying active and continue being part of my personal gaming experience!  Your contributions and those by others like you are important in keeping SoR WvW on the boards.  

Lately I myself have found myself tagging up also just to have a tag active when there is none , while at this point in time I dont expect SoR to be able field the necessary presence and hours to be at par with our rivals in the PPT game, I try to make it so that the people who run with me have a good time win, lose or draw and try to get them what they need be it a map completion requirement (within reason!) or some k-training.  

I just go have fun and hope that in my own little way I am able to contribute positively to others' experiences and that someday SoR WvW will be able to find the balance it needs to be the WvW experience that Rallians need. :-)  

Well said Jeff.

*Xeero Cool-Mez,Admiral Wiggin-Engi,Arya Sinfelle-Teef,Dirtyfilthyrotten-Necro,Ender Tha Xenocide-Rev
Filthydirtyrotten-Warrior

Troll

In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

"How many people that tried to help have left the server?"

Well, lots. I haven't left yet, but I'll be leaving in about a week. There's lots of reasons, but frustrations with all the things you brought up in this post are definitely a part of it.

I think, for my part, the mistake that I made was assuming that the remaining player-base on Sanctum of Rall cares about performing better. In fact, the overwhelming impression I got is that people were upset with me for trying to help. This is an attitude I can't remotely pretend to understand, but instead fighting, I just gave up.

I bet if you asked guys like Xivor, JavaChips, Moscow, they'd tell you the same thing: you try to help but just end up getting lots of shade.

In the end, you and your guild have to choose between three options. Acceptance, Fighting for Change, or Leaving for Change.

We started by Fighting for Change and it went poorly. I really don't think that, at this point, any small guild will have the ability to change the SoR playerbase. If I had, we might have stayed. Instead, your real option is to decide whether you can accept the style of WvW that is being played now.

We discussed Acceptance. Are we okay being in T8 WvW? Are we okay coming into a map with 10 or 15 PPT in primetime and working from there? Are we okay never being able to call for help, communicate with our friends in voice comms, etc? Are we okay knowing that our structures will rarely have siege, rarely have upgrades? Are we okay knowing that anything we will take will be lost if we don't personally defend it?

In the end, we weren't. So leaving became the only remaining option.

Everybody always says the game is about fun. I agree! Sanctum of Rall just moved away from the kind of fun I and most of my guild was looking for. I'd love to see SoR rebuild, but it's going to mean heavily recruiting guilds or players who want to have the same type of fun. Since I don't agree with the current "server meta," I have no interest in recruiting those types of players.

Anyway, I've tried to hush up since we decided to leave. I really don't want to troll or cause drama. I like you guys. But I did think it's worth noting that the complaints listed here are exactly the complaints that led us to leave. They're probably the complaints that led FIRE and VEX to leave. And many more guilds before.

Good luck, guys. Be kind to each other.

---
Karaoke (Loki | Oaky | Pokey | Smokey | Croaky | Cloaky | Soaky | Gnocchi)
Guild Leader - Super Mega Happy Fun Time [MEGA] - supermegahappyfuntime.com

I have old Guildies who are wishing to return to SoR at the moment.  They moved to T1/T2, and are now tired of having to pick times and try to schedule everything around a game.  These guys want nothing more then a casual setting where they can go an do as they will without being trolled or told what to do.  

Last night I lead my little guild group, at first I was just going to teach solo camp taking with rangers.... But then after a while we started flipping towers including a couple upgraded ones on FC.  The guys had a good time, and yeah, they are new, I can't put them up against equal numbers and expect to survive, in fact, I can't put them up against 75% of our numbers and expect to win yet... but its all a matter of time.

We still have an issue, and I see what our two friends from FBB have posted here on a some what regular basis.  Its still just attitude(not FBB's but other people), it has nothing really to do with whats happening on the field, although it is easy for us to mistake it for that.  I was frustrated the other day with numbers of people standing at spawn, not responding when we really needed them, and it took my buddy JEFF here to say something that made it click with me...  Nothing in particular, but the positive attitude from him, knowing that he is out there often. I know he has seen the same things FBB, myself and many others have seen.  He is trying to just smooth the ripples out, and buy us all time to become a family and work better together.    

Some of these issues could be language issues, as some languages do not use nonsense words that dull there sharpness... Surprising what a simple difference "the" can make in a sentence.  Other issue is some people are just elitist in nature and they have to be always "correct".  All it takes is a few bad apples.  We could always call them out on forums or map, but would that just be discouraging others from speaking or alienating them?  I think it would, and that is why many of us have spoke only in general terms here.  Until we are all a family and know one another well enough we can't pick out these rotten apples, best we can do is work with the leaders of those guilds to try to remedy the situation.

If anyone has issues with people from my guild and what they say, please don't hesitate to let me know.  My guildies will not be part of the problem when it comes to this.  However, they might get you killed, I can tell you they are not intentionally doing it, they are just to new to WvW or PvP to know any better.  

Quoting Fog... "You guys are my family and I'll fight against all odds with all of you." -This is my view as well.  

Mistress Collisto|Molly Oakenheart|Lena Andersdotter|Heather Jones
Guild Leader of [JADE] www.Immortalizedin.enjin.com

» Edited on: 2014-12-22 20:42:32

what i mean is...

Ive prolly spent more time in wvw, in ts and tagged up over the past 5 months than any 3 ppl combined.  my goal is to make a proud server.  I have given as much time as I can to teaching and making friends here.

so are you coming here to the forums to say either I failed you or many of the ppl I play with have failed you?  maybe youre mad at the randoms who nvr cooperate anyway?  the same randoms who would nvr read your post?

I could have asked my question in a number of more polite ways, I will not deny that and you could have interpreted my 7 little words in a number of more polite ways as well.  I gave you that option as a judge of character and to observe how you would respond.

You could have been more polite--you acknowledge this.  But you weren't.  You were rude, knowing you were being rude,  in response to a post about the lack of respect that is given to people that aren't part of your clique.

Do you not understand that this is exactly what keeps people from wanting to be part of our "community?"  That this is exactly what I was addressing?  Rude does not begin to scratch the surface.  You claim this was a test?  No, it was not a test.  You were an kitten. 

Have you failed me?  No.  Because this isn't about me, this is about the community.  You failed all of us, yourself included, because your stupid pride won't let you accept other people into the fold.  Of course, I am assuming that you're telling the truth about your level of activity; I've never seen you.  Maybe because you made so little impact when we crossed paths or maybe we didn't cross paths; it has been a long couple years--it takes a lot for me to remember names at this point.

I'm not mad at the randoms; they don't cooperate because they don't want to deal with people like you, and non-cooperation is a defense mechanism to protect themselves from this very situation.

As I stated previously, I came here and posted because the people that frequent this forum are the same that claim to lead the community, to care about it, that want to shepherd it back to T1, or at least out of T8.  Do you not understand that the problem is the leadership, not the followers.  Nobody wants to follow the leaders we have because they have done nothing to earn respect; those that have are sullied by association with the ones that, like yourself, push others out.  I don't tag up anymore because when I do, people expect me to be a belligerent asshat to anyone that dares to express an independent thought.

I didn't name you in the initial post.  You responded.  You're being defensive.  You chose to take up this fight, but you're not doing so well, are you?  You're setting up straw men and ad hominem arguments.  You haven't made a solid point yet, but you're still defensive.  You know you're in the wrong and you're hoping that more words will make you less wrong.  I'm right; I know I am right because I am discussing the actions and reactions of myself and my guildmates; this is based on objective fact--specific actions have happened that led to my post.  I didn't name names.  I could; I have screenshots, but anyone that feels that I'm talking about them clearly has a guilty conscience.  Respect isn't hard; you listen to what people have to say and you take it on merit.  You respond to and treat people in the same manner that you ask to be treated.  This is what I'm asking for; the efforts of my friends-my family-and I to be judged on merit and our membership in the larger community and not on some BS social structure that we don't want to be a part of.

Actually, I will name some names.

Jeff; you're a good guy.  You listen, you talk.  You fight the good fight because it is there to be fought.  Thank you.

Collisto; I have no gripe with EVIL; you guys were great the other day.  [FBB] was happy to die to take some pressure off you guys.  New people can easily be overwhelmed; expecting them to have excellent situational awareness is asking a lot, at least until they get comfortable, but you were their eyes and ears as they needed it.  That is commanding.

Hella Vanka; Sylver speaks very highly of you.  That is enough for me; she doesn't do that of many people.

Foghlada; You're in a really bad position.  You have friends and internal harmony to maintain competing with external forces and a life of your own on top of it all.  I don't envy you in the least.  You've made some good calls and some bad ones.  I have some gripes.  But you've got a lot on your plate and I genuinely believe your heart is in the right place always.

TimmyF; thank you for your words of encouragement.  The validation that my assumption that we were not alone was correct is comforting, especially coming from someone that Sylver holds in high regard.

The fact is that whatever the intentions of others, the situation is not what people [claim to] want.  If we fail to recognize and address the problem, it will only grow worse. 

» Edited on: 2014-12-22 20:40:27

YOU DID NOT FAIL VANU. YOU FAILED YOURSELF.

Yeah, I don't like the state of WvW, or the state of GW2 all that much until recently, so I've been playing Planetside 2 to get my massive-scale PvP fix.

We were a WvW Powerhouse back then, now we're literally last place. The attitude of the PvE community hasn't changed, we're still probably the nicest. What's changed that brought us all the way back to last place?

Viktor Rageclaw - Seaimpin na Cu (Veteran Member) of The Gaiscioch Family.

1-I have no permissions in ts I am stuck in the lobby. 2-we are outnumbered thus upgrading for the eventual fall is a waste. Indian tactics (hit and run) are prolly best for now. 3-my dog has bad breath.

who are you expecting to read this?

a simple question to see where youd go with it.  I was expecting  something more like... Oh I guess Im preaching to the choir here?  Yup, we're doing the best can here.  

youre reading so much into everything I say and it is very revealing.  I rly havent said anything much at all.

Ill say something now that youve clarified your position.

I have this fence in my back yard that is falling down.  Ive been patching this thing back together for over 10 years now.  I dont particularly like this fence, but I have to keep fixing it because its my home and I have to take care of it.

Its true we have failed as leaders and building a community.  The day I first bought my tag I had spent the most of the day scouting SoR bl and bay came under attack.

Wheres the commander?

There is none!

So I thought to myself... Im not gonna let bay fall so easily!  I dropped my 100g on the vender and started running to bay alt tabbing out to the wiki to figure out how to turn the thing on as I go.

We defended bay successfully and after the fight I realized I didnt want to go back to just being a follower and I had to go deeper and get to know the ppl around me.  

I dont remember any requirements to be nice or polite before I tag up?  I am an over sized kitten hat and a troll at times but Im also good at pvp and commanding and give these skills freely to the server whether you want them or not.  

In the process of making this community there has been much failure and it will likely continue to fail for a long time.  Until Jesus or the savior of your choice shows up to deliver us, your stuck with us.

We are just ordinary ppl trying to keep our fence from falling over.

who are you expecting to read this?

a simple question to see where youd go with it.  I was expecting  something more like... Oh I guess Im preaching to the choir here?  Yup, we're doing the best can here.

Stop defending this. You said it without context and it made you look like a butt. People have made it clear that it made you look like a butt. What you're saying isn't making you look less like a butt for saying it. MOVE ON.

I dont remember any requirements to be nice or polite before I tag up?  I am an over sized kitten hat and a troll at times but Im also good at pvp and commanding and give these skills freely to the server whether you want them or not.

I've said this many times in all the games I've played throughout the years. There's a difference between being a good player and being a skilled player, but it doesn't matter much on how skilled you are if you're a nasty individual. You don't have to be nice and polite, but you shouldn't be a nasty troll. You can command respect without passive-aggressive orders, insults, and screaming. (Not saying you do any of this. I have no experience in how you lead. I have seen people do lead like this in both Planetside 2 and GW2 and it's bittersweet to see.)

You attract more with honey than you do with vinegar. Though I do like my red wine vinegar on my Wawa Hogies.

Viktor Rageclaw - Seaimpin na Cu (Veteran Member) of The Gaiscioch Family.

The problem with SoR and WvW isn't intolerance and leaving it's a lack of accountability and petty, immature infighting. Everyone is firmly pointing their fingers at everyone else to assign blame. There is no community on SoR when it comes to WvW. Period. That's why VEX left...and FIRE...and soon to be MEGA. They see that now. You cannot have a good WvW community that is divided, and no server's WvW community is more divided than SoR's. THAT is why we are in last place and THAT is why WvW is dead on this server.

Also, synosius, you're coming of as a huge douchenozzle, just saying. This statement:

"I dont remember any requirements to be nice or polite before I tag up?  I am an over sized kitten hat and a troll at times but Im also good at pvp and commanding and give these skills freely to the server whether you want them or not."

makes you look like an kitten and will get people to stop taking you seriously.

» Edited on: 2014-12-08 10:02:07

» Edited on: 2014-12-08 10:02:33

- Charlie -
Guild Leader of Ascalonian Ghostbusters [ECTO] - an original SoR Guild - www.ectoguild.com
Current 80s - Arms Murphy (W)| Pumpsandabump (G)| Nicolas Rayge (R)| Karysta Raine (M)| Eiryn Blak (El)| Alexa Stoutcheste (T)| Billy The Kit (En)| Niteris (N)

The problem with SoR and WvW isn't intolerance and leaving it's a lack of accountability and petty, immature infighting. Everyone is firmly pointing their fingers at everyone else to assign blame. There is no community on SoR when it comes to WvW. Period. That's why VEX left...and FIRE...and soon to be MEGA.

So it is intolerance and leaving. XD

Viktor Rageclaw - Seaimpin na Cu (Veteran Member) of The Gaiscioch Family.

lol, yes and no. Intolerance and leaving are issues,but the leaving is a result of the infighting and the intolerance/finger pointing. The overall issue here is a general lack of community. This server has no sense of community whatsoever when it comes to WvW.

- Charlie -
Guild Leader of Ascalonian Ghostbusters [ECTO] - an original SoR Guild - www.ectoguild.com
Current 80s - Arms Murphy (W)| Pumpsandabump (G)| Nicolas Rayge (R)| Karysta Raine (M)| Eiryn Blak (El)| Alexa Stoutcheste (T)| Billy The Kit (En)| Niteris (N)

I should clarify. What I meant is that this server has a divided community. I have played with you before, and I have played with Mistress Collesso and you were both very helpful and pleasant to group with. But 50% of a community being helpful and cooperative and 50% being uncooperative and playing only for themselves does not make for a good overall community. That's what I meant by that. Everyone's goals in WvW are different, and (with some exceptions) most people tend to log in and aim to do whatever they please, not play as a community. That's what spawns the infighting and the debates, the lack of a set path. As you said, too many guilds on SoR think of things in terms of my GUILD or hell even my ACCOUNT, not my SERVER.

- Charlie -
Guild Leader of Ascalonian Ghostbusters [ECTO] - an original SoR Guild - www.ectoguild.com
Current 80s - Arms Murphy (W)| Pumpsandabump (G)| Nicolas Rayge (R)| Karysta Raine (M)| Eiryn Blak (El)| Alexa Stoutcheste (T)| Billy The Kit (En)| Niteris (N)

Why is this still even an issue?  Why can't you people just go out, have fun for the time you are playing out there, then let it go when you log off.

I get that you want to be competitive, but you can not do that in a 24 hour game.  You can be competitive for the time that you are playing, that is all.  Sure, you can try to work with others in various time slots, but in the end, they only have to do as much as they are comfortable with, while staying inside they boundaries of their level of fun.

I don't get this drama, I really don't.  Its pointless.  Absolutely, 100% pointless.  I really think that a lot of you need to just step back, take a deep breath, think about WHY YOU ARE PLAYING A VIDEO GAME... then look at this situation again.

I disagree with Fog, in that looking back at the past, ie. "how we got here" is important to understanding where we are right now.  Because until everyone can start having fun at "where we are now", there will never be any moving forward.

Until that happens, you're all just wasting your time playing this game and stressing over kitten that honestly... doesn't even matter.  I really really wish that I could get folks to realize that, because I did and I am a lot happier with my time in WvW now.

The best advice I can give if you want to retain people who are thinking about leaving: stop telling them to "just have fun."

If you are upset about the performance of SoR in WvW and get up the courage to say something - which, for a lot of people, is no easy thing - and you are told "The problem is that you care. Stop caring. Just have fun." it sends an awful message. 

Fog, you play football. Imagine it's the 4th quarter, you're down by 6, you have the ball. You start to deliver an inspirational message: "things aren't going our way, but we have a chance here. If we all pull together, we can win this thing!" And then one of your teammates says, "Stop telling me how to play. I'm just here for fun. Who are you to say that I'm not playing well enough? Jeeze, get off your high horse."

Or you get beat by 20 one week. Later, in practice, "Hey guys, they threw the ball all over us last week. We need to work on our D!" But all you hear back is, "We're never going to shut them out. We just aren't that good. Why are you even bothering keeping score? You should just enjoy the game for what it is!"

When somebody says they feel like their team isn't performing to its potential, getting defensive and telling that person to stop caring only further pushes them away. We felt it time and time again before we decided to leave. It did very much push us away. It did very much give us the impression that people on this server don't and won't care about rebuilding and improving.

No, SoR doesn't have 24/7 coverage. But neither do Kaineng, Sorrow's Furnace, etc.

If somebody asks for help, I consider it common courtesy to:

• Come help, or
• Let them know you're busy with other things and can't come, or
• If you are legitimately too busy to respond, check back in later and apologize, something like "Hey sorry I was in a fight, do you still need help?"

I can't tell you the number of times I asked for help knowing there were 15-20 people on the map, seeing a tag on the map, asking in chat, "Hey, tower is under attack, 5 here, no siege to defend, can be held, just need some bodies" and getting nothing. NOTHING. Not help. Not a polite "no thanks." Just silence.

My discontent with KOGS started when I practically begged Johny for help on home BL and the response was basically to laugh at me. Actually, I think one member I'll leave unnamed did laugh out loud at me, but I'm not 100% sure. Anyhow, they made it clear they didn't give a kitten.

Give a kitten. Help your friends. Come when you're asked for help or at the very least politely decline. That's the first step to rebuilding this server. CARE ABOUT YOUR TEAMMATES.

Just my two cents. And if y'all don't like it, well, I'll be gone in a week.

---
Karaoke (Loki | Oaky | Pokey | Smokey | Croaky | Cloaky | Soaky | Gnocchi)
Guild Leader - Super Mega Happy Fun Time [MEGA] - supermegahappyfuntime.com

I hope I'm not stressing or insulting anybody. I did my best to help people learn and grow. All I'm suggesting now is that folks try to respond to calls for help. That's really what this post is about, isn't it?

"Players of SoR, I need help!"

silence.

To the extent that I get to have parting words or suggestions, that would be it. Talk to each other. If you're asked to help, help or decline, but don't go silent. Get to know one another. It's much easier to forgive and forget the mistakes of a friend than a complete stranger.

Fog, you say a server is not a team. I disagree. Perhaps this is the great divide? I viewed you and your guild as teammates. Not another team. MY TEAM. I suppose I was naive. Anyway, again, I wish you all the best. I have no ill will toward anybody on SoR and hope that you guys find the atmosphere and game you desire. You may see me around occasionally on my alt account. I'm finding it hard to leave completely. <3

---
Karaoke (Loki | Oaky | Pokey | Smokey | Croaky | Cloaky | Soaky | Gnocchi)
Guild Leader - Super Mega Happy Fun Time [MEGA] - supermegahappyfuntime.com

Like I said, it's a different philosophy. I'm not trying to change your mind, I know I can't. I'm just trying to explain what drove us away in the hope that SoR can finally stop the bleeding. 

---
Karaoke (Loki | Oaky | Pokey | Smokey | Croaky | Cloaky | Soaky | Gnocchi)
Guild Leader - Super Mega Happy Fun Time [MEGA] - supermegahappyfuntime.com

why not divide up the zones and see who brings home the bacon? a little friendly competition between guilds might be the spark this server needs.

Fog,

The main difference between a team and a company is that a company is a group of individuals working for their own ends whereas a team has a common goal.  Companies have politics; teams have practice.  A team might have a single head coach but a company has a CEO; the organizations are very similar, although a company tends to operate on a larger scale.  That said, what sports team fields 500 members at once?

If you are suggesting that we should operate as a group of disjoint guilds that are simply trying to contribute to a WvW win then:

1) You're missing what the purpose of a community is.

2) There is no reason to have this site or TS as it is up to each guild to set their own course, with an implicit understanding that everyone is working to a common goal.  Coordination is not needed and, given the results over the last few months, we're not really using them.

To bring what Sekkerhund said into the mix, let us look at why we are playing a game.  I play GW2 to relax and have fun.  I could qualify that more, but let us start with that as a given; if it wasn't, I wouldn't be here.  I can run dungeons, or world bosses, or anything else and have fun.  What makes WvW different?  The fact that I can't do it solo.  The fact that I need other people.  The fact that we need to work together to be successful.  WvW is highly inefficient from an in-game reward perspective--but I play it for that teamwork, for that community.  That is why WvW is different, that is why I can't just let go and have fun--because the fun of WvW necessitates a community and teamwork.  We might disagree here, and there is nothing wrong with that, so long as we understand and respect this difference.

I didn't lose any money on those three waypointed keeps that were lost; GSCH did.  This isn't about money, this is about respect.  The parting words were where each GSCH commander was going so help could be called should the keeps be threatened.  A commander remained to watch and buy the next round of upgrades.  The commander didn't talk to anyone, didn't move when assets were threatened.  The other commanders didn't care when they were threatened either.  They only seemed to care that they could karma train to get them back later.  "Keep an eye on this" is a fine message, and we were willing to.  But that time spent watching them was wasted.  Have the kitten to tell the truth and say "we're only upgrading these because we have too much money--let them fall so we can k-train them later.  We'll be back in 2 hours, and don't forget to claim participation on the site then."

FBB started on SoR within the first hours of pre-launch because of GSCH; because we were led to believe that the legacy of Oldroar was something bigger than ourselves that was worthy of our time and effort and passion.  Were we wrong?  Is this a larger community worth belonging to or not?

» Edited on: 2014-12-22 20:38:53

I don't think anyone expects to have 100% of the server doing the same tactics and playing the same way, Fog. But if 50% is in it for the win, trying to get PPT to BEAT THE OTHER TEAMS, and 50% is just in it for the fights or the loot or the karma or whatever, then WE ARE NEVER GOING TO IMPROVE. Simple as that. Unlike FIRE, VEX, and MEGA I'm not leaving SoR, but that's not because I see any hope for this server and WvW, it's because I PvE primarily with WvW as a secondary occasional activity. If I ever do want to get into WvW again, you can bet yourkittenI'll be transferring to whatever server MEGA and FIRE transferred to because I enjoyed playing with them. WvW on SoR is dead. Put a fork in it, it's done. There will be no rebuilding from this, we've hit rock bottom and unless a large guild or several decides to give themselves the challenge of taking a last place server to the top, then last place is all we'll ever be good enough for. Time to face the music.

You all can go out there and enjoy "playing how you want to play", I'll be sticking to PvE because I do not "enjoy" getting steamrolled week after week.

- Charlie -
Guild Leader of Ascalonian Ghostbusters [ECTO] - an original SoR Guild - www.ectoguild.com
Current 80s - Arms Murphy (W)| Pumpsandabump (G)| Nicolas Rayge (R)| Karysta Raine (M)| Eiryn Blak (El)| Alexa Stoutcheste (T)| Billy The Kit (En)| Niteris (N)

» Edited on: 2014-12-22 20:37:20

Lets look at Pete Carroll, coach of the Seattle Seahawks.  He uses the same "have fun first" principles and yet still manages to develop one of the most competitive teams in the NFL, both externally and internally.

 2014 Super Bowl Champions, their first in franchise history... yea, you're all absolutely, 100% correct: Focusing on having fun first won't help SoR at all.  Definitely can't build anything competitive based on a "just have fun" mentality.  My apologies for ever bringing it up, clearly there are much more complex things involved that will never allow that to work.... or maybe just try something outside of your comfort zones and maybe, just maybe... something good will happen.

 Apologies, sarcasm is my default go-to.  For those that aren't familiar with who I am, understand that I am not a very nurturing or patient person.  However, I do have ~40,000 hours played in siege warfare environments since 2001, so folks may want to consider my advice well... because this is the most positive advice that you're going to get from me.  I'm a reforming griefer... its a work-in-progress.  :)

 So I'm going outside of my cynical comfort zone by suggesting what I'm suggesting, but I actually have a hope that maybe... just maybe, something good will happen.  :)

"FBB has been playing since Beta, and have been part of SoR since day one yet we never were informed about these things either."

If that's the case than you haven't been reading map chat in WvW. I am an extremely casual WvW player and I've seen dozens of posts linking the TS server info, as well as this website in every WvW map. People are made plenty aware of these resources, or at least they used to be. I'm not sure about now, but as of the last tournament this info was regularly being posted in /m.

Sekkerhund, the Seahawks are good because they're talented and they play as a TEAM, not because they have fun. They play a game and get paid millions of dollars to do so, of course they're having fun. But that's not what's winning them games. It's the fact that they have a lot of young, fresh talent and they have good coaching that teaches them how to work as a team.

- Charlie -
Guild Leader of Ascalonian Ghostbusters [ECTO] - an original SoR Guild - www.ectoguild.com
Current 80s - Arms Murphy (W)| Pumpsandabump (G)| Nicolas Rayge (R)| Karysta Raine (M)| Eiryn Blak (El)| Alexa Stoutcheste (T)| Billy The Kit (En)| Niteris (N)

» Edited on: 2014-12-22 20:35:43

Sure, play for fun first. Everything's fine for the Seahawks. 

Hey, why did Golden Tate leave again? And why did they trade Percy Harvin? Oh, and how's the relationship between Marshawn Lynch and Pete Carroll nowadays?

Nice try...

Edit: it strikes me that some people less familiar with football may not follow without some extra explanation.

Sekkerhund referenced the Seahawks as an example of how great "play for fun first" works in the NFL. I happen to like the Hawks! I have their QB and RB on my fantasy football team, so I tend to follow them. But they've had a number of locker room issues, including a WR who slept with the QB's wife, another WR who was getting into fist fights and apparently body slammed somebody in the locker room, and a RB who allegedly doesn't speak a word to the coach anymore.

If you Google "Seahawks locker room issues," you'll find about 394,000 results. Go ahead, try it.

---
Karaoke (Loki | Oaky | Pokey | Smokey | Croaky | Cloaky | Soaky | Gnocchi)
Guild Leader - Super Mega Happy Fun Time [MEGA] - supermegahappyfuntime.com

"I have also heard others that have not signed up for the website ask what the code being spammed is for?"

Ever hear of asking...?

- Charlie -
Guild Leader of Ascalonian Ghostbusters [ECTO] - an original SoR Guild - www.ectoguild.com
Current 80s - Arms Murphy (W)| Pumpsandabump (G)| Nicolas Rayge (R)| Karysta Raine (M)| Eiryn Blak (El)| Alexa Stoutcheste (T)| Billy The Kit (En)| Niteris (N)

When "hey, guys.  I got the wall of this tower down but I need help with the lord" is met with "go kitten yourself," people tend to hesitate before asking questions.  When nobody raises an outcry against this, the exclusionary culture is strengthened.  If we don't rally against our own trolls to let others know that behavior is not welcome, we're sending the message that it is.

When people see these aspects of the community, "head down and shut up" becomes the norm.  It is hard to blame people for not asking questions.

 Wow.  Sooooooo many things I want to say in this thread.  Sooo many disillusioned people posting here.  I would like to just say one thing:  where were all of you when SoR was working diligently as a team to rise up...before EG split up and the iQ remnant left the server, before the rest of EG stopped doing WvW.  Before KOGS left the server.  Before RA left the server.  Before FIRE left the server.  Before VEX left the server.  Before BOMB left the server.  Before RISE left the server. Before MEGA left the server. Where were all of you then? 

Maybe I am blind as a bat....and I could be...but I don't ever recall seeing the FBB tag out in WvW in all the time I have played WvW on SoR. Maybe you were out there and I just missed you, because unfortunately, I had to spend half of my WvW time diffusing community concerns.  And if I missed you during my time here, I apologize. I mean, up until last month, myself and FIRE were on SoR since day 1.

But I take offense to those that wish to drag FIRE in the mud here.  And I take offense to those that drag VEX and MEGA in the mud too. Those that keep pointing fingers and labeling us all as deserters or whatnot...you all are really just that disillusioned? Sure, point fingers at KOGS or RA, who were constant tenants of poor teamplay and high toxicity on SoR, but FIRE and MEGA were never like this.  In fact, I cannot even find one other guild on SoR that may be as community oriented as we were.  Not GSCH; they were too focused on being reclusive.  Not EG; they fairweathered out of WvW on a permanent basis after the first week of the tournament.  

But this is not an attempt to put FIRE or any other guild on a pedastal...nor is it an attempt to belittle any other guild.  I just ask that everyone consider WHY FIRE/MEGA/VEX left this server.  None of us wanted to at the start. Even after the competative WvW community crumbled, we were still here.  But then the people that made the smaller, casual sector of WvW...the GSCH + friends that are populating this thread for example.  These people became the majority. Actual WvW players became the minority.  And we were alienated by the majority population type of the community to the point where we realized something:  not only did the one thing we enjoyed the most (somewhat active and competative WvW) just crumble here...but now those remaining are making us feel like kitten because we actually like somewhat active and competative WvW. 

Fact of the matter is, WvW on SoR died, at least on a competative level.  This summer, we were covering 3 time zones out of 4.  Right before FIRE left, we ended up barely covering one map for one time zone.  That is dead.  GSCH wants to preach casual, "beer league" WvW.  If that is what everyone wants here, then fine...but judging from the OP here, I think it is safe to say that is NOT what everyone wants here. And I think it is safe to say that 98% of those that enjoy WvW do not want to be in a server that promotes that type of WvW.  WvW is a 24hr game.  ArenaNet made sPVP for those that want short battles with no lasting end result.\

And for the record, as much as Eko got blasted on here for his 7 word sentence, I think you all owe him at least just a little bit of gratitude.  Out of EVERYONE that I have ever seen in SoR WvW, I can honestly say no one gave it more than Eko did.  And he complained very little.  And he is still on SoR, still trying to fight the good fight, and probably tagging up a lot more than he wants to.  So for those of you that are bashing him and calling him out, I just want to say that a player's DEMONSTRATED PERFORMANCE is just as important as the other attributes that were listed here for a leader/player/commander, etc.  And he has definitely pulled his weight.

And before you all flame me and say I have no say in anything on the server now because I left the server , let it be known that I could not fully leave SoR.  A part of me will always be here, because of the nostalgia of the old fence in the backyard of your home.  My 2nd account resides on SoR...I recently moved it over here to be homed here. I hear this is a good server for roamers; no competition and easy ninja caps!

Combat Medic Barbie | Mist Walker Barbie | Rigor Mortis Barbie

Guild Leader of Chariot of Fire [FIRE]

Xivor the Loquacious strikes again! :-P

Just because I don't want anybody to get the wrong idea: I've never felt like my person or my guild is under attack by anybody here. Perhaps never by anybody on the server, except maybe some kitten from EG once or twice... but even then, it was pretty minor. This is excluding the ongoing attempts by KOGS to recruit my members and trash-talk me to them. Real classy. 

The major issue is that I have a different definition of fun from my remaining potential teammates and I don't feel like much consideration is being given to my type of fun. Which is, yes, slightly competitive. And not even all that competitive! Hell, any serious WvWer would think I'm a joke!

I keep being told that caring is wrong, that striving for excellence is wrong. I won't change my mind. I'll just find people who don't judge me for wanting to get better. 

---
Karaoke (Loki | Oaky | Pokey | Smokey | Croaky | Cloaky | Soaky | Gnocchi)
Guild Leader - Super Mega Happy Fun Time [MEGA] - supermegahappyfuntime.com

Not GSCH; they were too focused on being reclusive.

GSCH hosts community-wide events all the time and we invite anyone and everyone to participate. What in the everloving hell are you talking about?

Viktor Rageclaw - Seaimpin na Cu (Veteran Member) of The Gaiscioch Family.

You must have missed the 9000 conversations about GSCH, TS, etc.  It is better to NOT rehash that out again.  Yeah, GSCH had some amazing PvE community events. But in regards to WvW, the community-focus just wasn't as strong.  Refer to the other like 50 threads about this for more information.

Combat Medic Barbie | Mist Walker Barbie | Rigor Mortis Barbie

Guild Leader of Chariot of Fire [FIRE]

» Edited on: 2014-12-22 20:34:17

Hi Xivor.  We've been around.  We're small.  Real small.  Like, our primary force these days is Sylver, myself, and my 4-year old.  You missed us.  It is a lot easier for the small groups to be aware of the larger ones than the other way around, so no biggie there.

Sylver is by far our most active WvWer, and you should know her--she certainly knows you.  Insomnia helps her cover the 9pm-9am (EST) shift.  In a crowd of tags, ours is easy to miss, and when roaming on our own, as we often do, we don't really announce our presence.  Bunnies are like that.  Slip around silently then go for the throat.  That is how we operate.

I deal with politics all day at work; I never wanted to mix that into my recreation as well.  So I stayed out of it.  I kept my head down.  I didn't know the players or the grievances; I recognize the squabbles and the kitten measuring as such petty drama...  I actively avoided getting involved in the community because I knew where it was heading; I saw all the signs of dysfunction and I'm at a point in my life where I have far more important things to do, where e-drama is a distraction from things that really matter.  Back when we started to rise up the ranks I had stepped forward a bit.  A tagless commander in off hours and the like; I have a tag now, I just choose not to use it.  Back then I was an outsider that wanted in.  I'm not the type that needs attention, so I've laid low.  I've let other people step forward to have their day in the spotlight; my days for that are gone by over a decade.

FBB has only grown over the years.  Recently we've had the good fortune to add 2 members to our family.  This brought us to 10.  Unfortunately, most of those have little time for games, so there are only 2 of us that are really active; just as it has been since we formed many years ago.  When the conversation is focused on who can provide several hours of coverage with a 50-man squad, my guild has little place in the discussion.  When we had something to offer we did speak up, but as Sylver has pointed out, she has been shut out of the conversation; we were never welcomed.

That is what got me to break silence.  Not immediately, but it has grown.  As various groups and people burn out on the drama, there are fewer and fewer people willing to stand up and fight for the lost cause.  And as we all know, those are the only ones worth fighting for (that is a pop culture reference most of you are probably too young to get).

I'm sorry I didn't speak up earlier, maybe some of the drama we've faced could have been averted.  Given the direction and impact of this thread, however, I don't think it would have mattered.  At this point, the only good that I expect to see from this thread is the knowledge that there are kindred spirits out there.   The politicking shows no sign of abatement and there is too much inertia to affect a cultural shift.  We've lost so much as a community; I had only hoped to bring back a little civility, that we might have at least that much to cling to.  That would be enough for me, but I'm far too jaded to expect it at this point--pockets of it, yes, those I have found, but it does not pervade our social fabric as it once did, as the default condition.  And that makes me a sad panda bunny.

We gave away 9 legendary weapons to players on SOR

Yeah, I remember this. I donated literally all of my T6 mats, about 30 gold (I have less than 100g at all times), and helped farm more mats just for this to give people free legendary weapons because I love my server. Sure, I may not have played for like, the last 6+ months due to a mixture of disinterest in GW2 and technical issues, but my love for Sanctum of Rall has never waned.

But now that I know Synosius is Eko Eko...the same guy that would pop into Garrison on our BL while things were being built to take our much needed supply to EB....yeah...He sure did work hard to drain us to the point of not being able to finish our build.  Yet he continued to do it even though he had been asked by several people to stop.

Give him some credit as not even a half-hour ago, he and less than a dozen people just stealthily took SMC. His strategy was gold.

Viktor Rageclaw - Seaimpin na Cu (Veteran Member) of The Gaiscioch Family.

» Edited on: 2014-12-22 20:33:19

You're right Fog; bygones should be bygones.  Let's move on and build a better future.  A lot of us got a lot off our chests, we have a better understanding of each other, we should move on and not dwell on the past.

Let's just make sure it doesn't repeat itself again.

"Move on and not dwell on the past."

SoR server motto.....that no one seems able to follow.

- Charlie -
Guild Leader of Ascalonian Ghostbusters [ECTO] - an original SoR Guild - www.ectoguild.com
Current 80s - Arms Murphy (W)| Pumpsandabump (G)| Nicolas Rayge (R)| Karysta Raine (M)| Eiryn Blak (El)| Alexa Stoutcheste (T)| Billy The Kit (En)| Niteris (N)

xivor you gave away my big reveal, boo on you.

the pvf so good here, 9/10 would recommend!

a server isnt a company or a sports team because both those analogies imply that all will stay goal oriented and behave in a professional manner.  many ppl come to wvw like they visit a restaurant and everyone else is the staff.  they expect the place to be neat and tidy so they can have a pleasant visit.  this is an important distinction to make because I am likely to be rude to each and every one of you, sooner or later.

we are like a collection of room mates in college dorms all throwing parties.  gsch likes to put up banners and hire a dj, my parties are cheap beer and crazy antics.  johny was the muscle jock who would beat up anyone you asked him to for half a bottle of vodka. then you have the 2 guys in the back, possibly wearing sleeveless V neck sweaters, grumbling cause there's no napkins and olives with tooth picks in them.  Johny left cause you didnt give him enough vodka and faces to punch and kept asking him to help with your women's lit homework.

the problems we're having aren't even our fault.  the previous tenants moved their party down the street when the music got stupid and the booze ran low.  now ppl knock on the door and say... wheres the action?  oh you all suck!  this used be a party house.

so get your togas on and lets ram our heads through some walls!

p.s. there is a troll in this thread but its not me.  GAME ON!

I was rather disappointed that Johny never helped me chip away at the patriarchy. :-/ Also...

"p.s. there is a troll in this thread but its not me."

I'm not sure who you're talking about so I assume it's me. sadface. For what it's worth, despite us rarely running into each other (I was a BL guy, you usually were on EB), I really appreciated the work you put into showing people how to defend. SoR just needs like a dozen of you...

---
Karaoke (Loki | Oaky | Pokey | Smokey | Croaky | Cloaky | Soaky | Gnocchi)
Guild Leader - Super Mega Happy Fun Time [MEGA] - supermegahappyfuntime.com

p.s. there is a troll in this thread but its not me.  GAME ON!

And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling commanders!

Viktor Rageclaw - Seaimpin na Cu (Veteran Member) of The Gaiscioch Family.

I'm new to WvW (well back after a long and brutal RL-induced break) and trying hard to understand what this thread means.  Not succeeding too well, either, lol.

In the past two weeks I saw only a couple times where the call for help wasn't answered 'in time'.  To be sure, I'm not in WvW 24/7 so probably there were other times too.   Usually it seem that the call goes out from a small group stealthily punching a hole in a wall away from the main tag running at the time.  Maybe~ the small group is in ccom chat?  Sometimes not, apparently, because I'm in TS and the commander seems just as surprised as the enemy that it's happening until the someone announces in map chat or TS "whispers" that it's ready NOW -- HURRY!

To me this seems like a lack of coordination, or perhaps an unrealistic expectation that the main force can move instantly without shedding a large % of it's numbers.  If the small group doesn't want to be in TS or coordinate with the commander they could just capture objectives they can do all by themselves, right?  Like camps and towers?  Probably I'm missing something but that's how it seems to us noobs.

The other time I saw a call for help go unanswered was right before the SORC community event on a Thursday night.  I have no idea why those meet in WvW before going off to PVE land but I can understand the frustration of seeing 30 people AFK at spawn while a T3 garri on our home BL is getting taken.   I answered the call (and died spectacularly! :) but I don't think more than 1 or 2 others responded to the call.  I don't fault the SORC folks at all.  I'm sure most of them had just gotten home from work and really were AFK getting a drink or using the bathroom before their event.  But the *impression* of non-support caused by meeting in a WvW zone is definitely there.

"The other time I saw a call for help go unanswered was right before the SORC community event on a Thursday night.  I have no idea why those meet in WvW before going off to PVE land"

I will answer this as best I can for you until Fog adds more...  SORC meets in WvW to try to be mostly inclusive of SoR people.  Now that we have a megaserver you can't meet in a major town or map and try to control who joins the event.  Because of map limits which are I think 120 or 150 max people, if these events where widely available to all servers, SORC no doubt would then reach its max size and limit the amount of SoR members that could attend.  Fog used to try to organize these on an enemy BL to prevent a queue on our BL when we would actually see them, but now it is on SoR usually, I think to just prevent confusion and to establish a pattern.  The end goal is to return to our map in WvW and ultimately move on to other BL's to take them. Because I command a guild group usually right before these events on Saturdays, I have seen what you have said about the afk'ers at spawn, but when they are there, if there is something major going down like a potential loss of Garri or a major keep, they will often respond, but keep in mind they are organizing for something much bigger in just an hour or two.  Siege up, and try to hold the fort for that time, they will come in and clean house as soon as they are done in PvE. 

"Usually it seem that the call goes out from a small group stealthily punching a hole in a wall away from the main tag running at the time.  Maybe~ the small group is in ccom chat?  Sometimes not, apparently, because I'm in TS and the commander seems just as surprised as the enemy that it's happening until the someone announces in map chat or TS "whispers" that it's ready NOW -- HURRY!

To me this seems like a lack of coordination, or perhaps an unrealistic expectation that the main force can move instantly without shedding a large % of it's numbers.  If the small group doesn't want to be in TS or coordinate with the commander they could just capture objectives they can do all by themselves, right?  Like camps and towers?  Probably I'm missing something but that's how it seems to us noobs."

Your right on this one... Because my guild group would run tag-less prior to the colored tags coming out, we would be the ones most likely to ask for assistance like that, this is stuff that we would focus on.  Because most of my guild events for WvW are trying to introduce and encourage new types of game play in the game, let alone WvW, we often would run havoc and work on skills.  Because I enjoy the thrill of doing something with almost nothing, we punch holes in things.  Often we did not discuss it with the commander on the field simply because we did not think we where going to make it inside that fully upgraded item.  Unfortunately that then means that when we made it into the lord room and enemies slowly started to trickle in that we then started to need assistance as it is so close to a cap for us.  This is something we continue to have to work on, there is no real solution to this one while having our current numbers.  Best we can do is to try to announce our progress in map or TS..."Inside outer wall", "Inner wall at 10%", "On lord", and so on.  While in battle and trying to lead this kind of force it is easy to get distracted and forget to do that, and also many of us feel guilty about posting something like that because we feel guilty of pulling numbers from the other commander.  Lets face it, most players would rather be part of that small groups take on Hills, then they would like to be part of a camp take and tower in the Southwest corner.  Many times these announcements are not made in TS because the mentality of Zerg fighting slips in and the active commander gets upset that your group doesn't fall in line to run with him.  I used to hear a lot of "If [EVIL] guys would just join us and stop trying run alone we do a lot better", or "[EVIL] We need you guys to follow tag!"  Now I am only using my guild tag as a reference, it has happened to other guild groups as well that I have seen.  Those where all reason guilds would run tagless and try not to be in to much communications with Commanders on the field.  Things have changed and we are all still adapting, chances are if my guild is on the map now, you will all see us, often we might be the only tag.  Yes the tag might be yellow, yes, you may die a lot, and yes our goals may not be total domination that day, but everyone is welcome to follow along.

As far as Ccoms, I do not see this used much at all anymore...  I will admit I am as guilty as many others in not turning it on.  What I can say is over the next few weeks now that I am back from my vacation, I will be actively trying to push my members to use Team Speak, use Commander on Deck, and along with that I will turn on Ccoms especially if others on TS are using it.

Mistress Collisto|Molly Oakenheart|Lena Andersdotter|Heather Jones
Guild Leader of [JADE] www.Immortalizedin.enjin.com

I think most ppl would become frustrated with a chaotic situation and thus lash out at anyone not following their plan and trying to stay organized.  I feel that when a small group is trying for an objective and staying quiet about it, they are trying to be considerate and not cause confusion. 

I find strength in chaos and view it a churning sea of opportunity.  when youre commanding you have to keep searching for the weak spots and be ready to pounce.  often when Im out there I have several ppl in communication doing separate things, then when I hear that a change has occurred I say... ITS TIME GO NOW! with no warning.  because there was no warning, just see the opportunity and reach for it.

the challenge is keeping track of all the moving pieces and staying ready for anything, or sometimes just guessing rly well.

back in the warhammer days, you could take 3 ppl and start working on an objective.  your small force could go unnoticed for about 75% of the way and then announce in map chat... INNER GATE 45% and 20 ppl would show up.  I called this the shadow army.  I would start leading some random 3 ppl and they would reply... oh but theres not enough of us to take this keep!  I would reply... just wait, they will show up at the very end.  recreating the shadow army tradition is something Ive been trying to bring back here.

the shadow army hasnt rly caught on yet, because groups arrive with very diverse goals or just dont realize whats happening.  warhammer players were much more focused on the crushing the enemy part of wvw.

Fog and Mistress -- thanks for the explanation about SORC -- I hadn't considered the megaserver problem.

Mistress and Synosius -- thanks for the thoughtful analysis of the small group dynamic. I'm personally in favor of all kinds of groups and playstyles in WvW. More is more is more, and one thing SoR needs is more!  

Personally I'm less concerned with coordination going forward -- especially considering the upcoming changes to white swords and PPT for kills.  I expect we'll see lots of smaller groups on every world.